Weird Police Response

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Suppose nobody seemed to be home. Is the scenario in the OP sufficient grounds to break in and do a search? Do you LEOs think that a judge is likely to issue a search warrant in such a situation?
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I believe they would secure the area all the way around the house and property, outbuildings(around the barn as one example). They will look for any unusual signs or forced entry: open doors, damage, anything suspicious, broken windows, signs of life inside, and so-on.

They might leave a 'bug in your ear' by leaving a business card on your door handle or in your screen door or something. Just like an alarm going off and a call to police by ADT, I don't think they enter. However and like "Cabin" stated, it is someone else's call and decision at that point.
 
I also live in the country. I doubt very much the state patrol would come this far off the highway except for something very important, and it would take the Sheriff at least 1/2 hour to get up here, unless for some strange reason they were already up on this mountain...happens once or twice a year.

Anyway, I personally would be very offended if the officer suggested I leave my carry at the truck, and I would say so. Second, the officer entering the house with me? I think we could do the walk around the house together, then one of us enter the house, which one? that I would leave to the deputy. I do not see anything good in having two people in the line of potential fire from a home invader...IMHO: one inside and one outside would provide much better coverage.

And, like you Uncle Buck, there are a lot of guns laying around my cabin. Some in every room.
 
Wait, did I miss the revolution starting this weekend?

One of the most interesting things about TFL is the fact that so many of us confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal. And then that so many pretend knowledge of legal and illegal when they have none.
 
Suppose nobody seemed to be home. Is the scenario in the OP sufficient grounds to break in and do a search? Do you LEOs think that a judge is likely to issue a search warrant in such a situation?
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Maybe I missed something somewhere, but I never heard of having to get a warrent to check out a building when a burglary was reported happening in that building.

As mentioned, if no one was home, you check the premeter for signs of a break in. If no sign is found, then you try to contact the owner for a "walk through". If you can't locate the owner, then go back to patrol and hope for the best. But more then once in my 20 years, I've done that and missed a break in and had to go back and take the report. Cops arn't perfect, we do miss things.

IF there is sign of a break in, then you do a building search, no warrant needed. After the scene is secure then you call the owner to determine if anything was taken or disturbed.

Lock outs are common. Happens all the time, you get a call of someone breaking in to find the owner has locked himself out of his house. How you handle that is based on your ability to read people.

Most calls I've responded to (ref: Burglary in progress) came from third parties.
 
Second... As to the response of the officer disarming the property owner for a few mins until everything was verified, I dont have a problem of that either, as long as it was a reasonable time, and policy/law was followed in the state in question. It would be reasonable and legal here. Keep in mind, it would be, to me at least, a quick securing of the firearm, leaving the property owner with back-up and a quick sweep of the house to ensure there wasnt a dead body, etc in the house. Thats what I am looking for period. The reason behind that I would use to articulate my reason behind that in court, would be not only the call I was dispatched on, but also, due to my years in law enforcement, I have experienced many domestic violence situations that were improperly reported due to "DV Victim" being instructed to call 911 and report anything but a domestic violence event, and even with the ID showing the same address, I wanted to ensure everyones safety.
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This looks like a perfectly reasonable, legal and probably textbook correct way of handling the situation.

Now, in the event that legally armed Ninja homeowner want's to "assist" LE in sweeping the house for bad guys and won't take no for an answer, or legally armed Ninja homeowner orders LE off his property and otherwise tries to keep them from investigating the burglary report how would you respond?

My bet is that Ninja homeowner suddenly becomes the focus of LE attention rather than the burglary report, but then, I'm not in LE.

Advise please. And correct my assumptions if I'm wrong.
 
lawnboy,

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment, "the fact that so many of us confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal." When I put the uniform on and go to work, I only have the bare facts, and many times very little of that. I know anything I do, or even doing nothing at all can/will get me sued, or at the least complained on. Not to take it lightly, but its just a part of the job, no matter how "right" or "legal" I try to do the job.

A 911 call itself isnt always correct as to the information. Dealing with what may be a prank call to some, may be a deadly call to others. Take something as simple as a 911 hang up call. Here it is dispatched out to police/fire/rescue/ems to respond. Why? Sure, its normally 99.9% its a prank, mistake, etc, but that 0.1% of the time or less, locally, and probably around the nation, the responding personel have found various problems, from injury/death, to a crime in progress. Its rare yes, but then again it comes back to, if you sit back and do nothing, when that 0.1% rolls around again, you will have a large lawsuit looking at you.

I treat the preliminary information from dispatch as a "maybe" because at times, it turns out to be something different. I do my level best to respect everyones rights, and legal grounds, but I also have a job to do in reference to protecting life/safety as well. Its kind of a balancing act to go between the right to privacy, and trying to ensure safety for all involved. There really is no perfect solution that will work 100% of the time for everything.

Again, just personal opinion from experience, feel free to disagree.
 
Yeah, that's kind of a pet peeve of mine. I bring it up all the time in these "scenario" discussions. I also like the say that:

"Only you can decide what is right and what is wrong. But you will never get to decide what is legal and illegal."

That's a paraphrase of a quote I heard or read somewhere. I can't remember where so I claim it as my own:-)
 
I'm not crazy about letting unwelcome visitors in my home, whether they be traveling salesmen, Jehovah's Witnesses, burglars, or police officers. The hell of it is that I can lock the door for the first two. I can shoot burglars. But I'm totally powerless against the police. In this case, they had the power to come in based on exigent circumstances, the homeowner be damned. And if they find something illegal, or something they think is illegal, he's the one taking the ride.

On the other hand, I'm thinking I probably could have abused the law to get rid of the neighbor who was dealing drugs out of her house. I could have called in a burglary or domestic to the address, police would have responded, entered, seen the drugs, and locked them all up.

I need to learn to work within the system. :p
 
On the other hand, I'm thinking I probably could have abused the law to get rid of the neighbor who was dealing drugs out of her house.
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Why not be straightforward and swear out a complaint; maybe take some video and assist the responding or investigating officers to develop probable cause the legal way, so that your neighborhood can be free of the filth?

If you complain about drugs being sold in your neighborhood but won't do anything about it, you have no right to complain.
 
In Western WA (Snohomish County) if there isn't fresh blood, violent crime in progress, a high profile investigation or evidence found by an officer as a result of investigating another crime ,drugs and drug trafficking get ignored.

Filming your neighbors in the act of using or selling crack and meth runs afoul of anti stalking legislation and the County Sheriff won't even look at it.

Personal experience.
 
smoakingun, my point is that the police officer has a job to do. People also have personalities that sometimes clash(will all know this happens w/LEO...lol).

I'm not unsympathetic to you original post, but the bottom line the cop is going to do what he feels he can or should do whether you try to stop him or not.

That is why in other situations lawyers tell you not to give up your constitutional rights to allow vehicle searches as one example. The LEO is going to do what he feels he can or should do anyways. You have given up your constitutional rights by giving him the OK ahead of time.

Now, you can say "no" at the home, but you ARE NOT going to stop him if he says no to you. He is going to disarm you if he feels it is necessary, he is going to detain you if he feels he must, and he is going to search your home if he feels he must. What are you going to do to stop him? I would love some responses about this.

A recent post brought up a great point I forgot about - the fact that when unexpected "visitors" show up - you might be screwed depending on what is 'out in the open' in plain view in your home.

all the best
 
While I can understand the worry and concern of a person when the police show up unwanted, thinking something bad is going on, when you, yourself know nothing is wrong. Keep in mind, that while I do try to be sympathetic and understand your side, I and the other officers here, do have policy/guidelines/legal precedent to follow.

Please keep in mind that in respect to the scenario the OP discussed here, if I were the responding officer and did nothing basically, it would not only be against policy, but could also be seen as negligent, and an unreasonable response.

Its a double standard to complain about an officer being negligent for one thing, and then your basically wanting him to be negligent in his duties when it comes to you.

While I do understand the discomfort and inconvenience, of the police showing up for what may seem a "prank" to some, I fail to see where a life safety, and security check would be an unreasonable response.

Again, just my personal experience, and opinions.

Enjoy the wonderful day!
 
If i am on my property and certain that it is and has been secure and equally sure that the officer has bad information, i would ask him to check the address with his dispatcher. I would NOT pick up my firearm at any point during the visit. I would not give the officer permission to enter, but i certainly wouldn't attempt to prevent it physically. I would also not mention that i had my key or offer the key to the officer (post 1 indicated keys needed).

If an officer is willing to break into my home to be sure that nobody else has previously broken in and "holed up", then i'm not worried about anything that officer might notice while he's inside, short of a kidnapped child or something of that magnitude; he would look like a fool in court trying to stretch that "a nice lady on the phone reported a possible burglary on a locked and visibly secure house".
 
Orangello, while there is validity in your post, please consider this...

Just as with any other criminal undertaking or enterprise, there are different varieties of burglar.

There is the smash and grab, the home invader and the pro burglar. Frequently, burglars will gain entry--not necessarily by smashing in the front door, but by tricking a lock or finding an unsecured window. If they gain entry through a door, they will LOCK THE DOOR BEHIND THEM. Why?

Because if the police do show up, all they have to do is to lie low and still and hope that the cop is lazy or complacent enough to check the doors and drive off. That's why when we respond to a burg call, we set a perimeter and wait for the owner if we cannot find a point of entry.

So, now you have arrived, and my partner and I are there. You come up with your holstered handgun, and say, "Thanks, but I'll clear my house myself."

What you--and we--don't know at the time is that the person hiding in the house is a (example here) two-strike loser, convicted of violent felonies and looking to feed his habit. He knows that if he gets caught, it's his third strike and he faces a life sentence.

So, knowing that this is a possibility, we tell you, "Hey--I know that you're kinda bent out of shape over this. But give us your keys, and wait out here. And, while we're at it, I'll have to ask you for your handgun as well. It's only temporary--you'll get it back after we come out."

Why are you disarmed? Because human nature is a funny thing. We place great value in our homes--not monetary, mind you--but our home is OUR HOME, darn it, and who is this jerk that just broke in to MY HOME?!? I don't want you to lose your composure and run up to bust a cap in the jerk who broke into YOUR HOME.

Here are the other reasons.

We are trained to clear houses. We don't know if you are or not.
We are there to protect YOU. It's our job.
You would be going in with one handgun. That's it. We're going in wearing body armor, and toting 5.56mm carbines with weapon lights--and maybe night vision, as well.

(At any rate, before we go in, we have notified Dispatch, and there are probably a few ore units that have quietly rolled up. They're ready to come in as back up if needed.)

And--if you're worried about what might be in plain view, it's simple--don't do anything illegal, and you don't have anything to worry about. The bottom line, though, it this--when I do a building search, I'm looking for contrast and shadow; movement where there should not be any; I'm listening for ANY noise, and watching for lights. I'm looking through a weapon sight, and I'm concentrating on getting the burglar OUT of your home.

(Of course, if we KNOW there is someone there, we aren't going to play games with them--K9 is a radio call away. Let the puppy play a bit. :D)
 
I will add also, that with people outside cleaning up leaves, etc this time of year it is not uncommon for people to enter the back door to gain access to your home if its unlocked and your in the front yard, or vice versa, without the home owner even knowing until they take a break and go back inside. Most are typically snatch and run type home invasions. Just because you have been home and out in the yard, doesnt mean someone didnt sneek in. Its not that common, but does happen.

There can be endless variations, but "stuff" happens.

Beyond that, I second Powderman's response.
 
So, now you have arrived, and my partner and I are there. You come up with your holstered handgun, and say, "Thanks, but I'll clear my house myself."

He knows that if he gets caught, it's his third strike and he faces a life sentence.

So, knowing that this is a possibility, we tell you, "Hey--I know that you're kinda bent out of shape over this. But give us your keys, and wait out here. And, while we're at it, I'll have to ask you for your handgun as well. It's only temporary--you'll get it back after we come out."

And--if you're worried about what might be in plain view, it's simple--don't do anything illegal, and you don't have anything to worry about.
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I do appreciate the well-written response Powderman.

This doesn't fit the OP's scenario, though; he was in his yard, not pulling up after the LEO. If i drive by my house to see a squad car out front, i won't be stopping if i can avoid it. I can't think of any positive outcome from that meeting/conversation that wouldn't happen without my presence. If i had no option but to stop (LEO has already noted my car or i am already out of the car before i see the LEO), there is no way i am going to get out with a firearm on me (legality aside). As for my keys, i would like to think i would have the presence of mind to accidentally lock those in the car in my haste to meet the officer in a friendly and visibly empty-handed manner (spare keys discreetly available near home).

As for the hardened felon, i'm not trying to sneak up on anybody or to take anybody into custody or to shoot anybody not shooting at me or trying to, only to strongly encourage anybody in the home to leave ASAP.

That last bit isn't exactly complimentary to the fourth amendment, of which i am quite fond.

Not to be a jerk, but if a LEO is going to enter my house under the OP's scenario, he will do so without my permission, without my company, and if at all possible, by breaking some glass to gain entry. Anybody who is a guest at my home knows me well enough to know that if they need to call 911, they better be doing it from somewhere else or be so severely injured as to prevent them from getting to somewhere else. If i personally needed an ambulance, i would do my level best to drag myself outside and close the door before calling 911. I am a big fan of personal property rights and that whole "a man's home is his castle" ideal.

Please do not take this to mean that i do not value the services provided by LEO's.

I just don't want them in my home and have gone and will go well out of my way to peacefully maintain a LEO-free home. Similarly, i would wait in cuffs for an LEO to get a K9 unit (from across the county) to sniff my car down rather than consent to any search beyond that deemed needed for officer safety or allowed by available probable cause, even if i had just had the car detailed by a bunch of Nuns with a penchant for chastizing sinners. :) I guess i have some trust issues.
 
If i drive by my house to see a squad car out front, i won't be stopping if i can avoid it.
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Why?

I can't think of any positive outcome from that meeting/conversation that wouldn't happen without my presence.
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Why?

As for my keys, i would like to think i would have the presence of mind to accidentally lock those in the car in my haste to meet the officer in a friendly and visibly empty-handed manner
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Why?!?

Not to be a jerk, but if a LEO is going to enter my house under the OP's scenario, he will do so without my permission, without my company, and if at all possible, by breaking some glass to gain entry.
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WHY?!?!?

For heaven's sake, people! This is WAY overboard.

Tell you what you need to do.

1. Find a competent attorney.
2. Draw up a binding document that states emphatically that you do NOT want any Emergency Services response to your residence, under any circumstance. This includes police, fire and EMS.
3. Have your attorney accompany you to your Mayor/County Executive.
4. Serve this notice to that Mayor or Executive; notarize copies of the signed document, and send them Certified Mail to the Chief of Police, Sheriff and State Patrol.
5. Ensure that you include a clause that states that you will hold harmless in perpetuity any law enforcement officer that, in respect to your wishes as set forth in the document, does not respond to your address if called.
 
Okay, guys, we've let this go since it has been civil and a lot of questions have been asked and answered.

We aren't on the topic of firearms any longer, so let's get back to that.

Thanks all, for the civility up to this point.

Closed.
 
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