Weird hate for shotguns
- Thread starter 9-ball
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If I can hit small birds moving fast on unknown vectors at speed with a gun, I can hit larger,slower closer things and do it fast. And same with multiples.
Very few firearms systems can do that. And do it while unloading the kinetic energy of a car wreck.
Within 25 yards, there is no better defensive weapon than a shotgun, loaded appropriately and well known to the user.
Very few firearms systems can do that. And do it while unloading the kinetic energy of a car wreck.
Within 25 yards, there is no better defensive weapon than a shotgun, loaded appropriately and well known to the user.
The "Myth" of not having to aim
Normally a shot pattern for normal shells (not FliteControl type cups) opens up 1" per yard from the muzzle. So for typical HD distance - yes you're going to have to aim because you're going to be creating 3"-4" holes.
However... with a rifled barrel and a load like Wolf - which is known for opening up pretty early you can get some pretty large shot patterns.
I calculated that the Wolf through rifled barrel spreads 3.6 times the "normal" rate.
Normal shot through a smoothbore would give roughly a 5" pattern at 5 yards. The Wolf through rifled opens up to 18"
So firing Wolf at 6 feet should create a 7.2" pattern, 10.8" pattern at 9 feet.
That's pretty darn close to the so called myth that you don't have to aim.
Granted the pattern takes on a ring shape...
Normally a shot pattern for normal shells (not FliteControl type cups) opens up 1" per yard from the muzzle. So for typical HD distance - yes you're going to have to aim because you're going to be creating 3"-4" holes.
However... with a rifled barrel and a load like Wolf - which is known for opening up pretty early you can get some pretty large shot patterns.
I calculated that the Wolf through rifled barrel spreads 3.6 times the "normal" rate.
Normal shot through a smoothbore would give roughly a 5" pattern at 5 yards. The Wolf through rifled opens up to 18"
So firing Wolf at 6 feet should create a 7.2" pattern, 10.8" pattern at 9 feet.
That's pretty darn close to the so called myth that you don't have to aim.
Granted the pattern takes on a ring shape...
Edward429451
Moderator
I shoot skeet or trap informally and it's a heck of a lot of fun. I have small game hunted with it but no birds. When I shoot a SG like a rifle I do real good with it, but it's range is very limited. Even with slugs I'm only good out to about 60 yds. I just think that rifles are so versatile that my 870 is superfluous. I'm not ready to sell it off or anything like that, I'm just not a bird hunter.
I think a SG is dandy for HD inside the house. I have two rounds of 00 in it and then the rest are all slugs.
I think a SG is dandy for HD inside the house. I have two rounds of 00 in it and then the rest are all slugs.
TheKlawMan
Moderator
Pointing is Aiming but not Sighting
Count, You said that,
I have also had trouble with "the so called myth", but I wonder if it is no myth at all but a matter of the misuse of language. For example, I pulled up some random definition of "to aim".
I have always been a bit confused when accomplished shot gunners say you do not aim but point the gun at the bird or clay target, not to here consider shooting slugs, and I think I would agree with you that according to the commonly understood meaning of "aiming" a shotgun is aimed when it is "pointed". I probably have this all wrong and will get my come upance from our friends, but I suspect that when shot gunners say they point and do not aim they mean they do not sight down the barrel.
If I understand what I am supposed to be doing, I am working to develop muscle memory so that my guns barrel is directed at where I am looking and I am looking at the target without reference to the sight or sights. In fact, looking at the barrel or the sight nearly guarantees a miss.
In short, it comes down to semantics. In general parlance a shotgun is aimed in that it is directed, but in the jargon of clay shooters it is not aimed, since to aim means to use sights.
You are indeed correct that a shotgun has to be directed towards the target, but that is not the same as aiming with the use of sights.
I think I have to much time on my hands.
Count, You said that,
I have also had trouble with "the so called myth", but I wonder if it is no myth at all but a matter of the misuse of language. For example, I pulled up some random definition of "to aim".
I have always been a bit confused when accomplished shot gunners say you do not aim but point the gun at the bird or clay target, not to here consider shooting slugs, and I think I would agree with you that according to the commonly understood meaning of "aiming" a shotgun is aimed when it is "pointed". I probably have this all wrong and will get my come upance from our friends, but I suspect that when shot gunners say they point and do not aim they mean they do not sight down the barrel.
If I understand what I am supposed to be doing, I am working to develop muscle memory so that my guns barrel is directed at where I am looking and I am looking at the target without reference to the sight or sights. In fact, looking at the barrel or the sight nearly guarantees a miss.
In short, it comes down to semantics. In general parlance a shotgun is aimed in that it is directed, but in the jargon of clay shooters it is not aimed, since to aim means to use sights.
You are indeed correct that a shotgun has to be directed towards the target, but that is not the same as aiming with the use of sights.
I think I have to much time on my hands.
SurplusShooter
New member
Try shotguns you won't regret them.
As happens on this forum we often end up debating shades of meaning or bantering semantics. But I've always taken the myth of not having to aim a shotgun as meaning something akin to pointing a shotgun in the general direction of a bad guy and unfailingly flattening him with a volume of shot that put seemingly hundreds of holes in him from head to toe.
I think there is a scene in "Walking Tall" where a sawed off shotgun is fired and there is a wall that looks like it was about 150 meters from a detonated Claymore mine.
The more I think about it – the more nebulous a myth probably is to pin down. How can I account for whatever erroneous information people may have in their head? I once had someone tell me that the recoil on a .45 was so powerful that in order to hit a target you had to aim at the floor…
If people think that you can just fire a shotgun in the general direction of a BG and hit him… then probably a load like Wolf in a rifled barrel, using #2 or #4 Buck… there probably is a pretty good chance that you’ll hit him with at least one of those projectiles. Getting hit with just one projectile is unlikely to “stop” someone though… unlikely, statistically speaking to strike vital tissue.
But I think the myth is probably more along the line of creating a huge wall of lead, several feet across and several feet high that makes the perpetrator look like Swiss cheese..
I think there is a scene in "Walking Tall" where a sawed off shotgun is fired and there is a wall that looks like it was about 150 meters from a detonated Claymore mine.
The more I think about it – the more nebulous a myth probably is to pin down. How can I account for whatever erroneous information people may have in their head? I once had someone tell me that the recoil on a .45 was so powerful that in order to hit a target you had to aim at the floor…
If people think that you can just fire a shotgun in the general direction of a BG and hit him… then probably a load like Wolf in a rifled barrel, using #2 or #4 Buck… there probably is a pretty good chance that you’ll hit him with at least one of those projectiles. Getting hit with just one projectile is unlikely to “stop” someone though… unlikely, statistically speaking to strike vital tissue.
But I think the myth is probably more along the line of creating a huge wall of lead, several feet across and several feet high that makes the perpetrator look like Swiss cheese..
Not sure why you would hate a shotgun, it is just another tool. I have little use for a rifle, and shoot mostly shotguns and handguns. Growing up on a sheep ranch in Washington state I carried a 357 all the time on the range and a 20ga single shot part of the time. All the coyotes that I shot with the 357 were 25 yds or more away, the ones that jumped up almost under my feet were never hit. The 20ga on the other hand was deadly on the coyotes that were up close.
It has been over 40 years since I left the ranch but I still shoot mostly hand guns and shotguns. Most of my shooting is action pistol or trap. I keep buying or trading into rifles only to sell or trade them off, just no into rifle shooting.
But I still do not hate rifles.
It has been over 40 years since I left the ranch but I still shoot mostly hand guns and shotguns. Most of my shooting is action pistol or trap. I keep buying or trading into rifles only to sell or trade them off, just no into rifle shooting.
But I still do not hate rifles.
TheKlawMan
Moderator
You mean it doesn't! Maybe that accounts for my dismal trap scores. At least I have another excuse
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anonymousFolk
New member
@9-ball...
I do find it funny how entrenched we get in our camps; rifle, handgun, and shotgun.
Same thing other people said, different tools for different jobs. Planting seeds? Use a little shovel. Digging a hole? Use a normal shovel. Digging up big bushes or trees? Use a pick.
In a survival situation long-distance, I'll take a rifle over a shotgun, even if I got a scope and 32" rifled barrel with slugs. Just plain screwed vs rifle unless you have a rifle yourself at long distances.
In a home defense situation, shotgun is king. Huge firepower, huge damage, big shots, and if you don't get a long barrel or stock, mobility. There's no reason to learn double or triple tap...because all you need is a single tap.
Handguns...I'm on the fence. So many knives are out and in hand before anyone with a CCW in 15' has cleared leather. Sure handguns are convenient and concealable...unless you get something with decent firepower that could actually take someone out fast, and if you're getting a huge handgun, why didn't you just get a shotgun for those short distances?
Oh yah, shotgun can breach doors too.
Plus good luck hitting birds ducks geese or rabbits with a handgun or rifle vs a big ole cloud of lead put out of a shotgun.
Did I mention the price difference? Ease to learn? Easy to learn? Don't need pinpoint accuracy?
Anyways...hopefully one of the above can convince you. I'd like someone to convince me about handguns
I do find it funny how entrenched we get in our camps; rifle, handgun, and shotgun.
Same thing other people said, different tools for different jobs. Planting seeds? Use a little shovel. Digging a hole? Use a normal shovel. Digging up big bushes or trees? Use a pick.
In a survival situation long-distance, I'll take a rifle over a shotgun, even if I got a scope and 32" rifled barrel with slugs. Just plain screwed vs rifle unless you have a rifle yourself at long distances.
In a home defense situation, shotgun is king. Huge firepower, huge damage, big shots, and if you don't get a long barrel or stock, mobility. There's no reason to learn double or triple tap...because all you need is a single tap.
Handguns...I'm on the fence. So many knives are out and in hand before anyone with a CCW in 15' has cleared leather. Sure handguns are convenient and concealable...unless you get something with decent firepower that could actually take someone out fast, and if you're getting a huge handgun, why didn't you just get a shotgun for those short distances?
Oh yah, shotgun can breach doors too.
Plus good luck hitting birds ducks geese or rabbits with a handgun or rifle vs a big ole cloud of lead put out of a shotgun.
Did I mention the price difference? Ease to learn? Easy to learn? Don't need pinpoint accuracy?
Anyways...hopefully one of the above can convince you. I'd like someone to convince me about handguns
9-ball,
If you don't want to hunt birds;
If you don't want to hunt big game in areas where rifles are not allowed, due to population density, but shotguns are (because projectiles don't carry nearly as far);
If you have no interest in trap, skeet, or sporting clays;
And if you aren't concerned with home defense, or allowed to use a shotgun for such purposes;
And if venomous snakes aren't an issue where you live;
Then you really don't have any need for a shotgun, so don't worry about it.
If you don't want to hunt birds;
If you don't want to hunt big game in areas where rifles are not allowed, due to population density, but shotguns are (because projectiles don't carry nearly as far);
If you have no interest in trap, skeet, or sporting clays;
And if you aren't concerned with home defense, or allowed to use a shotgun for such purposes;
And if venomous snakes aren't an issue where you live;
Then you really don't have any need for a shotgun, so don't worry about it.
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"I've been plagued with a weird hate for shotguns whole my life. I just can't stand the though of my rifle not making a clean single hole were I want it. Problem is, I do understand how versatile they are. Talk me out of it, please!"
My first post on this forum - so here goes ...OP says "..talk me out of it"
I like my 12 gauge shotgun. It is fun to shoot. It is a Mossberg 500 and has a Surefire light mounted on it when I use it for home defense with the 18" barrel. For fun at the range(and maybe one day I'll take it hunting) I mount the 24" ported rifled slug barrel. Mount a decent scope and shoot Remington Acutip sabot slugs gives me nice groups at 100 yards. Acutips make nice, clean and BIG holes. I also added a recoil supressing stock helps a lot and I do not shoot 3" shells, stick with the 2 3/4", so there's less shock to my shoulder. I would shoot slugs all day if they weren't so darn expensive!
My first post on this forum - so here goes ...OP says "..talk me out of it"
I like my 12 gauge shotgun. It is fun to shoot. It is a Mossberg 500 and has a Surefire light mounted on it when I use it for home defense with the 18" barrel. For fun at the range(and maybe one day I'll take it hunting) I mount the 24" ported rifled slug barrel. Mount a decent scope and shoot Remington Acutip sabot slugs gives me nice groups at 100 yards. Acutips make nice, clean and BIG holes. I also added a recoil supressing stock helps a lot and I do not shoot 3" shells, stick with the 2 3/4", so there's less shock to my shoulder. I would shoot slugs all day if they weren't so darn expensive!