weighing powder, just wondering

Weighing powder is just one way to measure, by mass. Powder measuring devices generally measure by volume unless you are looking at the automated machines that measure by mass.

You can make accurate ammo with either measuring method, and it is my experience that the differing water content in powder as it is stored differently (the jug gets more and more air in it as you use it up) means that for the same volume from a powder thrower you'll actually measure more or less weight on your scale.

As an experiment, hand throw ten charges and weigh them on your scale. Then put one half in a tightly locked container with a fresh desiccant pack, and leave one half exposed to moist air. Weigh them again in a week. Then load them up and shoot them and see if you spot any difference in performance. If you want a control group for experimental rigor, throw five more fresh charges and load as normal.

You kinda have to use a rifle cartridge for this, most pistol charges are so light that a 10% variance in mass can hide in the noise of thrown charges. Much easier to see variation in mass due to water content with a heavier charge.

Jimro
 
And then? There is R. Lee. R. Lee developed loads for a commercial ammo company. He developed the loads with dippers, after road testing he went back to the shop and, pulled down the loaded ammo and weighed the powder.

In the process 'they' used a business card to lever the powder in the dipper. And then! He explained how much design and engineering went into his dippers. He claimed the level dipper was minimum and the dipper would not support an overcharge:eek:.

Before the strong get weak and the weak pass out, allow me to explain: He said the apex of powder above the dipper was the same every time. It could not be higher or lower when done correctly. That should explain how he developed the starting load and finished with the maximum load.

F. Guffey
 
I use a automatic powder measure and do every round. But if i have to use my beam I do it at every 10 rounds.but I make sure I do the same thing every time when I drop the load in the case.As for about Lee dippers for what is stated yes it will work like was stated but that is depends on if you use it the way you need to.it take some se to if you not use to it but after you are then it become easy.
 
If a varmint rifle can keep 5 shots under 1/2" more than half the time.
Or if a deer rifle can keep 5 shots under 1" more than half the time...

I have done MY job, and probably built too heavy a rifle, because it is more accurate than I need.

So I am in the bottom 99%, way down in the 99%.

But some of the top 1% guys [national level competitors] are not weighing every charge either.

That's rifles.
--------------------------------------------------
Pistols with tiny charges are a problem.
Then I got this RCBS Little Dandy powder measure.

OK, I don't weigh each pistol charge either.
 
I check weight on every 10 thrown charges. When I begin, I throw ten charges to verify actual weight, and also at the end of the session, to make sure the measure (Lyman 55) did not move. Depending upon the number of rounds I'm reloading, I'll also check ten through the session.
 
I use a Hornady measure. The chamber fills when the handle is down. I discovered that when the metering chamber sits facing up that gravity and vibrations from the bench cause the charge weight to vary. My rotor turns very easily and the handle will settle down. If I just lift the handle and dump the charge it will different to the one where the handle is lowered with a slight bump at the end of the stroke then dumped. I rigged a spring assembly to hold the handle up and the measure now fills with a smooth down motion and light bump and is thrown in one motion. The consistency of my thrown charges is much better. With ball powder it is hard to hand weigh them as accurately as the measure throws them.
 
Trickle charge all rifle cartridges but for handguns only when I'm using Unique and only when I'm shooting for free beers after our shooting session with my buds.:D
 
Last edited:
I still weigh all charges down to the 1/10 gn. Metal God- With in .3 gns?. That's a heck of a variance don't ya think. I just farted around with my new barrel on the 6 BR. Was loading 29.4 Varget. Accuracy was great ( or so I thought at 600 yards ). Jumped it up to 29.7 Varget. Found out 29.4 was not near as accurate as it could be. That was only .3 gns and it made a huge difference in accuracy.
Now maybe at 300 yards or less the difference is not noticed to much as was my expirence at 300 also. But when I went to 600,800 and 1000 ( even went to 1400 ) yards with it. The difference was very noticable. I have learned I would rather have 4 inches of left to right then 2 inches of up and down.
 
Often ignored in weighing is the need for consistent environmental conditions. Powder can absorb a percent or so of moisture weight and then needs the equivalent of another half a percent or so in energy to evaporate it. Someone mentioned recently that the Norma manual also mentions that increased moisture content lowers powder burn rate, so you can add that error source into the mix. So if you don't keep your powder in fairly consistent temperature and humidity conditions, you can get something on the order of the equivalent of a 2% error in charge error even though you weigh every charge to the nearest tenth of a grain.

If you dispense by volume perfectly you eliminated the moisture weight portion of the error above, which is about half of it. This is one reason benchrest shooters loading at the range use the high dollar powder measures rather than bring a scale and a draft shield. When the climate changes, they want to minimize the effect of moisture content.

The other factor concerning weight vs. volume is that stick powder burn rates, in particular, vary with packing density. Some will self-compensate in some cartridges with some bullets. Other combinations won't work out that way. That is, if you get a charge that's heavy because it is packed more densely, it also is slower to burn by an amount that compensates for the heavier charge quantity. Other's don't work out that neatly.

An example of compensation would be Hatcher's report of a powder that metered so poorly that it gave a spread of 1.7 grains from the equipment used to load National Match ammunition, but that shot consistently more accurately than a shorter grain similar burn rate powder than metered to just a 0.6 grain spread on the same equipment. All other components were the same.

An example of not compensating would be the late Dan Hackett's report of a load that shot well when loaded at home, but that caused sticky bolt lift when he loaded it at the range. Same charge. What he finally traced the difference to was the powder settling due to vibration in his vehicle when transporting it to the range.

Powder measures tend to vibrate some during use, particularly when cutting grains, so powders that can pack much with vibration tend to pack to different densities over the course of the hopper being emptied. So to get the best use of a measure, you want a powder that tends to compensate well in your load. If you don't have that, you may have a situation in which weighing is going to be your better option.

Toward weighing, because of the packing issue in measures, the newer electronic weight dispensers are probably an advance over the old method of throwing a charge of varying density, then trickling up to final weight. This is because the electronic dispenser spreads the grains out and vibrates them uniformly into the pan. I would expect, therefore, the packing density of the resulting charges to be more uniform. So if you have consistent temperature and humidity conditions and are weighing, as long as you handle funneling the powder into the cases the same way each time, this should be a very tight charge metering method.

At some point you will have to wonder why we set powder measures up with a scale, and if we go back and tweak the measure because the scale says it has moved off target weight a little, then, in fact, we are really metering by weight rather than volume, and the whole thing feeds back on itself. Well, you have to start somewhere, and manuals have loads by weight, and even Lee's VLD's are used to figure a volume for a weight or vice versa. So why don't manuals publish loads in cc's or some other unit of volume? The answer is that the bulk density of powder varies even more than moisture affects do. If you look at Accurate Powders, for which the distributor, Western Powders, publishes bulk density and its tolerance, you see some vary by over 5%, lot-to-lot. That means VLD numbers are no more accurate than that.

So we start with weight. Then we work up a load. Then we are where we are. It's often not exactly on any published number for charge weight or volume (based on a powder VLD). It's only certain to work with the lot of powder we used to develop the load. If we get there by using a micrometer adjusted powder measure for which we have determined how far to change the adjustment to get about one test charge of weight increment, we can actually work a load up just using the measure and record the setting. Again, that's just good for the lot of powder we have and we'll have to do it again if we change lots.

Interaction between scales and the powder measure that are useful are to find a starting load. To see if your measure trends toward increasing or decreasing charge density as the hopper gets lower. Seeing if a different dispensing technique seems to produce less variation in weight (and therefore in metered density) than another. Lots that is useful may be done there. But I don't think it's necessarily useful or even a good idea to readjust a measure in the middle of loading an ammo batch. That's as likely to introduce an inconsistency in performance as not. As always, though, YMMV, and it should be tested.
 
Last edited:
My ppm stays within .2 for all my handgun cartridges and that's close enough for me. Rifle is another thing. I throw close and trickle every charge to desired weight.
 
I used to weigh each and every rifle charge, by manual means. I found that the volumetric powder dispenser I have just won't work well with stick powders. So, that unit is now used only for hand gun powders. As such, at least with the powders I use, the measure is as accurate as it needs to be (I have verified this). It is never off more than 0.1 grain, which is just fine for hand gun loading.

I ended up getting a Hornady power dispenser for rifle powders. It functions like a big, power-driven trickler (just like other brands, I am sure). It weighs every charge (dispenses powder directly into a pan on the attached electronic balance) - and does NOT depend on volume. So, I STILL weigh every charge - but the machine takes care of the tedious work. It works with any powder, but, in my experience, is better with larger granule powders, such as stick powders. The precision of this machine is 0.1 grain.... but I have found that, 70 - 80 % of the time, the charges are spot-on. If the machine goes over or under more than 0.1 grain, it stops and an alarm sounds.

The Hornady dispenser was $235. More than I wanted to spend....but I have since come to believe that it was money well spent.

So, to sum up: both my hand gun and rifle loads are always accurate to plus or minus 0.1 grain.
 
Last edited:
I hand weigh each rifle load. I've just always done it that way. It starts when testing a new powder/bullet for accuracy. Once I find one that me and the gun both like, I want to MAKE SURE it's the same every time. After all, that's why I went through the trouble of loading test rounds, right?

I've never needed rifle ammo in a volume that that I felt I couldn't do using this method. I don't want to be frustrated by an off charge while target shooting, hunting, or defending myself, not necessarily in that order.
 
I shoot only benchrest, I check every round using the RCBS Charge master 1500. I'm only reloading 25 at most, so checking each one is no big deal.
 
It depends on what type powder you are using and how good your powder measure is. With some powders and measures, a thrown charges are more accurate than weighed charges.
 
849asco-I am in your boat. That is why I did load work up also. Find the right primer, right powder charge and then the right seating depth. Seems silly to just throw charges after you have done all that. It's like finding your seating depth and then any where with in 2 or 3 thousands is good to go. You go through all this case prep to just dump powder and go?. My cases get trimmed everytime, sometimes the trimmer I swear does nothing more then shine the edge, but that is maybe .001 trimmed. I can see when loading 7MM or 338 Lapua where 3/10's might not matter to much, but when loading 223 or 6 BR, basically any small cartridge,3/10 grn is going to make a difference.
My 223 is 25.5 Varget, not 25.4 or 25.6. It is so easy to keep it at 25.5, why would I not do it?. Now when I pull the trigger and my bullet does not go where I wanted it to- It is my fault. My MV is always less then 10 fps, most times it is 7 or less. When I go to the range- I out shoot 90% plus of the people there, Now as much as I would like to think I am a better shot, maybe it's because of all the prep work I do and the being anal about it. Food for thought only here.

Reyonlds- How does a thrown charge ( with certain powders) become more accurate then a charge that has been weighted?.
 
Last edited:
4Runnner - That's my point. If I wanted to just load and shoot, I would throw the minimum charge into the case, jam a bullet on top of it that will chamber in the rifle and pull the trigger................. I figured it was called "load development" for a reason. I'm glad my cars I buy are "developed" and not just thrown together in haste.............oh wait...........
 
But what if the thrown charges prove to give you better accuracy than the weighed ones do? That's been a test result that has occurred in a number of trials done over the years. It happens for reasons I described above. If you don't try it, you'll never know.
 
Since powder is measured universally by WEIGHT....how would one KNOW if "thrown charges" are in fact "more accurate" than weighed charges ? No one measures powder based directly on volume - "I use 1.27 cubic centimetres for that bench rest load in my .308" - or something like that. Charges dispensed by volume ALWAYS correspond to a target WEIGHT. So, if your powder thrower dispenses a bit more (or less) than the target - then it simply dispenses inaccurately - at least with that particular powder. How is that desirable ?

As long as the scale used to weigh the charges is accurate, then there is NO difference.

Sorry, but the idea that thrown charges are somehow "more accurate" than weighed charges is nonsense. Either the charge WEIGHT is correct - that is, equals the DESIRED weight - or it doesn't. How you get there doesn't matter, except in the sense of how much time and effort it might require.
 
Back
Top