Webley in 45 Colt?????

D

DARTH 44

New member
I`m confused.
I recently read about WEBLEY Green revolvers,and there`s a note
stating that the Webley Green was chambered in 455/476 and....
45Long Colt.I find the latter hard to believe as the 45 Colt ammo
available in 1880s had VERY SKIMPY rim of only .502-.504'' diameter,not designed to work with the Webley`s star ejector.
IF the Webley Green revolvers were INDEED chambered in 45Colt,
they must have been plagued with serious extraction/ejection
problems.
Any thoughts?

Thanks
 
Maybe it was the .45 Colt contemporary, the .45 S&W, which ran in SAA's, but had a larger rim to ensure reliable extraction from S&W #3's and Schofields.

As I understand it, the Gubmint standardized on the shorter .45 S&W to avoid logistical supply problems during field trials of the Schofield. All the rounds, long, short, small rim, large rim, were known as ".45 Colt".

It's a complete fish in the dark, but it's all I've got.
 
There was a WEBLEY chambered in 45 Colt

A pal of mine in Reno had one. It was a commercial version complete with fully adjustable target sights. The last time I had the opportunity to shoot it was im '90 or '91. It shot and handled beautifully.
 
I don't know about the Webley Green, and I rather doubt the story, but a lot of Webley RIC models and the like were re-chambered for .45 Colt in this country when they were imported after a big British handgun turn-in program in the early 60's.

These guns were mainly civilian and the program was not the same as the earlier release of Lend-Lease and other surplus arms, such as M1911A1's and Webley and Enfield military pistols.

Jim
 
There were some WG revolvers rechambered in .45 Colt in the 1960's. In fact, some were obviously available earlier, because Elmer Keith referred to them in,"Sixguns", originally printed in 1955. One photo in the book shows one, nickeled with six-inch bbl. Golden State Arms listed these .45 WG's in their catalog. Both flared and birdshead butts were offered. I believe they were rechambered by the importer.

I don't know that an RIC revolver could be rechambered for .45 Colt; the cylinders were pretty short in most versions. Still, I wouldn't argue with Jim Keenan without being very sure of my facts; he's one of the more knowledgeable posters on this board.

Lone Star
 
Thanks for all the replies
I think I should`ve written a more complete summary of that Webley story.
It comes from the book ''Strelkovoye Oruzshye''(Shooting Weapons) by a russian gun expert-A.B. Zhuk
(The tittle and author`s name,spelling), published 1992.

Here`s my attempt of russian-to-english translation:
''WEBLEY KAUFMAN.Caliber 45LongColt or 455/476.Barrel length
5.75''(146mm).Similar to the big-bore WEBLEY PRYSE revolvers
but has a different style opening latch,detachable left sideplate
and birds-head style grip.Break open construction.
WEBLEY GREEN 1879 Army Model. A strong revolver although
not officially adopted,yet quite popular among the british officers.
Caliber 45LongColt or 455/476.Barrel 6''.
Improved extraction/ejection system and the new 'stirrup latch'
also called 'the Webley latch' The WG was in 1882 modified to
WG-TARGET Model by changing the grip to square butt style.
Another target model,the WG-MATCH introduced in 1889,
differed from the WG-TARGET only by that it went back to the
birds-head grip configuration.''
I didn`t find any 45Colt break-open Webleys more.

I`ve seen a photo of Mike Venturino(IIRC) showing two 45 caliber
rounds.One was 45S&W,the other had its case identical in length
but wore that skimpy LongColt style rim.C.R.Sam is it the 45
Medium Colt you mentioned?
I`ve always thought it`s the 45 Short Colt.
Hmm.The cylinders of the RIC Webleys are definitely too short
to chamber 45Long Colt,but there were 45 Webley and 450 Colt
actually chambered in the Royal Irish Constabularies,and that
may cause confusion.
Interesting thing is,that the 450 Colt can be fired from a 45LC
revolver,but it would be a very feeble subload with its .69'' long case and 13 grains of BP.
WILL TERRY am I correct if I say your Reno pal`s Webley had 7,5''
barrel?
 
Darth......I offer my apology.
The .45 Medium Colt was a dream devised to mess with the Long Colt/Short Colt nomenclature arguments.

Sam
 
C.R.Sam....It is allright.;)
Btw,it was a smart idea of making mess.The story of the 45 Medium Colt,you emailed to me,sounds quite credible.
Was it an April 1 post?:D

Now,a quote:

According to Mike,those
who have referred to it
as the .45 ''Long'' Colt
were correct; there really
was a .45 ''Short'' Colt!

''When the .45 Colt cartridge was introduced in 1873 it used a
case length of a nominal 1,29'',with a rim diameter of .502''.
Incidentally,this very narrow rim is why the 45 Colt was never
chambered in lever actions of that era.It simply didn`t have
enough rim for the extractor to grab solidly.
Then in 1875 the Government adopted the S&W Schofield
revolver but that gun wouldn`t accept the.45 Colt cartridge.
Its round,the.45 S&W was only 1.10'' long and had a wider rim
of .522'' diameter to work properly with the S&W simultaneous
ejection system.
Even with the wider rim the .45 S&W would work perfectly in
.45 Colt revolvers.And as far as the differing cartridge lengths
the situation was the same as with today`s 357 revolvers also
being capable of using any .38 Spl.cartridge.So, I can see reason
for people informally referring to the regular .45 Colt as the
''long'' .45,while calling the .45 S&W the ''short'' .45.
And the story doesn`t end there.
In my cartridge collection there are some old .45 Colt rounds
headstamped ''WRA Co .45 COLT''.Cartridge case length is
1.285'' and rim diameter is exactly .502 inch. I also have some
.45 S&W cartridges headstamped ''REM-UMC .45 S&W''.
Their cases are 1.108'' long and their rims are .520 inch wide.
Everything fine up to this point?
Also in my collection is a single round headstamped
''REM-UMC .45 COLT'',and it shares the .502 rim that is correct in
this era for .45 Colt.But,now get this,its case is only 1.107'' long
In other words, it has the same case length as the .45 S&W but
the same rim as the .45 Colt,and it`s headstamped .45 Colt.
If this isn`t a .45 ''Short''Colt then exactly what is it? Btw,this
mystery cartridge of mine is factory loaded complete with a
cannelure at the base of the bullet.
There`s more evidence.I have an original S&W Schofield revolver
The cartridges marked .45 S&W function perfectly in it.When
they`re loaded into the cylinder and ejected,the extractor lifts
them right out. When the short .45 Colt cartridge with its .502-
inch rim diameter is loaded into the Schofield,the extractor tries
to lift them out,but when the cartridge is about halfway up, the
extractor jumps over the rim letting it fall back into the chamber.
That short REM-UMC .45 Colt cartridge wasn`t meant to work in
a Schofield.Where else could it work? Why in any Colt SAA or
Colt 1878 DA .45
So,in my opinion there is complete justification for calling our
modern .45 Colt the .45 ''Long'' Colt - because there most
certainly was a .45 ''Short'' Colt cartridge in the past.''

By Mike Venturino SHOOTING TIMES November 1997

That was long,but it`s the best explanation of all the Long Colt/
Short Colt nomenclature arguments IMO.

Regards
 
I read Mike Venturino's comments, and own all three of his excellent books. I'm really glad that he covered this.

But Mike wasn't the first to note this "short" .45 Colt. Elmer Keith mentioned it, even to the Remington headstamp, in his classic, "Sixguns." That book should really be the starting point for anyone beginning to read about handguns. Keith didn't like it, thinking, as I recall, that it was short not only in length, but also on accuracy and power.

By the way, I' ve been able to handle several Webley WG's over the years, and they were superbly built revolvers.
Lone Star
 
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Yea...I wish Elmer Keith were a member to the Firing Line,
just imagine all those posts:)
Lone Star, what`s caliber of the WGs you have handled?
 
They were all .455's, but I think one may have been marked: ".455/.476". I believe that a .476 would also fire the later .455 service loads, both Mk. I and II ammo. Mk. II cases were shorter. The longer Mk. I was also sold as ".455 Colt".

Lone Star
 
Kind of a surprise to me, but I asked a friend to measure the cylilnder length of his 1896 W-G. It came out 1.655", which is long enough for a standard .45 LC at 1.60".

Elmer Keith said that in rechambering S&W and Webley .455s to .45 LC, you had to load his pattern of SWC crimped over the front band instead of in the crimp groove. But it looks like it would take a factory load.

Bear in mind that most US rimmed rounds have rims about .060" thick, but the usual British cases have only about .040" or so rims. So a W-G in .45 LC would have to have more headspace behind the cylinder or recessed rims.
 
45 long colt

My dad had a nickle plated and inlaid 1890s WG in 45lc. It was one with the bird's head style grip and sported custom target grips. He fired winchester cowboy ammo out of it and it is very accurate. I have seen 3 other WGs in 45lc for sale on the web in the past.

I have heard of several Mk6s that were converted for the long colt but the slugs had to be seated extra deep in the casing for clearance.

The reason that the WGs have such long cylinders is because the standard .476 enfield mitary loading in the 1880s while having a short casing had such a long bullet that it was the same overall length as a 45LC cartridge.
The 455 webley mk1 cartridge used the same casing but had a shorter bullet and when the army switched to cardite it was found that a shorter casing would be more beneficial so it was shortened to the better known 455 mk2 design.

Also while most R.I.C.s used the shorter cylinders the 1883 model had a longer cylinder that would handle the .476 enfield round. I have an old American Rifleman article that says webley also made this model revolver in 45Lc and 44-40 for american sails. There is also documentation that winchester ordered some Webley revolvers in the 1880s in 44-40 and possible 45Lc to compete with the colt D.A.s when colt started selling the lightening rifle.
 
There is no such thing as a Webley Green chambered in .45 Colt

There is no such thing as a Webley Green revolver. The W.G. stamped on the revolver are initials for Webley Government. Source - "Webley Revolvers" by Gordon Bruce and Christian Reinhart as revised from "The Webley Story" by W.C. Dowells.

Webley's record keeping was less than meticulous. It is possible there were W.G.s originally factory chambered in .45 Colt, but I doubt that Webley would chamber for a cartridge that would slip from the extractor causing a jam.

I used to own a Webley W.G. Army Model in .455/.476 that was converted to the modern .45 Colt cartridge and never had extraction/ejection problems. Selling it is a mistake I regret. It had a trigger pull as smooth and light as any Python or Smith I ever handled and it never had the light primer strikes I have seen many Pythons and Smiths have. It was very accurate, however the action was considerably more fragile than the Webley Mk I -VI Service Revolvers. I also used to own a Webley Mk III in .455. This is a relatively rare Mark. I paid $35 to someone who had even less of an idea of its worth than I did. Selling it for $150 was a HUGE mistake! Twenty years later thank God I am not so dumb.

"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun."
 
What's odd with the WG is that even though the trigger is very light and smooth the hammer has an incredibly strong mainspring behind it. I wonder how they aranged that.

The main source of broken parts in the WGs is the cylinder stop it has this silly little music wire like spring that tends to go. Technically though it is a auxilary cylinder stop that is simply used to keep the cylinder from turning when the hammer is not cocked or the triger pulled tothe rear, cirtainly a better arrangment than the russian nagants thats for sure.
When the hammer is cocked a litl humt on the rear of the trigger engages the notches i the cylinder and the hand bares agianst the ratchet to make for a tight lock-up.
Pretty good design really. Older model colt used a similar method for lock-up but most "modern" revolvers rely entirely on the cylinder stop to lock it up and the hand is out of contact with the ratchet when the gun fires.
 
Now the WG in 45 Lc I handled never had any problems with the rims slipping past the ejector, though the stroke of the ejector was to short to call it an ejector really, unless you held the gun upside down. And the modification either, original or later modified, was done by recessing the rims for clearence.

Really my Mk6 with 45AR cartridges had a worse habit of jumping the extracter than the 45LC casings did. And a belgian S&W 44-40 I own is the worst for this but only with unfired casings not empties.

I have always felt that if webley did offer WGs in 45long colt then it must have been on special order only and not standard, though from what i have read the 45LC did have quite a following in Africa and australia.
 
Has anyone ever seen factory markings designating .45 Colt on a W.G.

I have not been able to find any, how about anyone else?


"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun."
 
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