Weatherby Headspace Confusion

[Bucksnort1]

PA Joe, I don't think I'm going as much as 1/4 turn. It's whatever the instructions indicate. It's more like 1/8th or less. I'll take your advice and only have the die touch the shell holder, perform my other steps then see if they chamber ok. It makes sense.

 

[F. Guffey]

And then I explained why the cases expand in front of the belt,

1/4 turn of the die after the die makes contact with the shell holder. OR, an additional 1/2 turn of the die after making contact with the shell holder when the ram is up 'AND NOT CAMMED OVER": I add that cam over thing because if the press is a cam over press the ram backs off from the die after the ram gets to TDC.

Then there is verifying, verifying is a foreign term to 'MOST' reloaders. If I adjust the die down to the shell holder with an additions 1/4 turn I verify contact between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder MEANING! If my press, die and shell holder is adjusted to return the case to minimum length there will not be a gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die when the ram is at the top of the stroke.

But, if there is a gap the thickness of the gap will verify the case did not get size "BY that much".

F. Guffey

 

[Bucksnort1]

A reloading friend and I talked about head space earlier today. I asked him how he knows, on his 308s, his head space is proper after sizing. He said he has to trust the die and the manufacturer's instructions. It seems the same would apply to the 300 Weatherby or any other bottle neck case. Some of us don't want to invest in an electron microscope to ensure head space is correct (someone will reply and say an electron microscope is not necessary).

I know the importance of head space but if head space is such a big deal then, why don't RCBS and other manufacturers address the issue in their basic loading instructions in their kits so, back to my original statement when I say that if I follow directions for the sizing die and other aspects of reloading, I won't need an electron microscope and my loads should be safe.

 

[noylj]

A belt is a rim. You can head space off the rim/belt or the shoulder. In all cases, you want to minimize head space. It may only improve group size by 0.001", but it does seem to "always" improve accuracy.
To minimize head space, you almost always head space off the shoulder--provided the case was fire-formed in that particular gun. this will also reduce case stretching as a bottle-neck case is stretched as the case head is forced back and the shoulder is forced forward.
However, in the final consideration, the differences can be so small that is "just doesn't matter" and you should FIRST be sure rounds feed and chamber in your rifle and that you have worked up the load in terms of bullet and powder and charge weight before even worrying about this sort of tertiary accuracy issue.

 

[F. Guffey]

In all cases, you want to minimize head space.

I off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head. Then there are dynamics, or neat little bundles that cover every thing. There are a lot of things that go on inside the chamber when I pull the trigger.

I have killer firing pins.

F. Guffey

 

[Metal god]

I'll start by saying two things . I don't and have never sized a belted case . I do believe I have a good understanding of sizing cases .

A reloading friend and I talked about head space earlier today. I asked him how he knows, on his 308s, his head space is proper after sizing. He said he has to trust the die and the manufacturer's instructions. It seems the same would apply to the 300 Weatherby or any other bottle neck case. Some of us don't want to invest in an electron microscope to ensure head space is correct

Trusting the die manufacture instructions to be correct for your rifle or any one rifle is fine but not necessarily right for your rifle , There is a difference .

When I sized my cases ( 308 ) per Reddings instruction which is the same as you described . This is what my shell holder and die looked like when the ram is fully up with cam over , they are touching with no gap .

This is what my cases looked like after only 3 firings because the shoulders were being set back .008+ causing excessive head clearance . I crushed the cases on the left with pliers to be sure I never use them again . Notice the cases on the left have head separation at the web after only being loaded 3 times per instructions . The cases on the right have been loaded 8 times

What was the difference in how my sizing die was set up for the cases on the right . I adjusted the die up to only push the shoulder back .002 . That looks like this when the ram is fully up . Notice the gap between the shell holder and die .

The die manufacturers instructions are to insure the cases sized per there instructions will chamber in any rifle . That means the cases must be sized small enough to fit in the SAAMI minimum spec chambers . Therefore if you have the avg factory chamber . It's going to be somewhere in the middle of SAAMI specs . Meaning if you're sizing your cases per the instructions . You are likely sizing to minimum spec and are sizing your cases down to much . You will not get the case life you ultimately could get when doing so ( See 2nd pic ) The gap in the picture above is how much my cases were likely stretching each time fired when sized per Reddings instructions . Trusting the manufacturers instructions is only going to get you a cartridge that chambers in your rifle and goes bang . It's not likely going to size the case best for your rifle and most likely reduce case life .

If you are only loading these once or twice then you're likely fine but I have read about standard belted dies not sizing all the way to the belt and that causing issues . I can see that being even a bigger issue if your die is not making hard contact with the shell holder .

So I ask this because I don't have nor ever used the collet die you're talking about . Is there a way to only use it to size the case just above the belt and not the neck ? This way you can full length size your case only bumping the shoulder back .002 or so . Then size the case near the belt with the collet die to insure it chambers . This should allow you to headspace off the shoulder and still size down the bulge .

You said the cases you are sizing now were not fired from your rifle ??? If that's the cases . Maybe your rifle does not bulge the cases at the belt and just FL sizing after they have been fired in your rifle will be all that's needed .

 

[Greg Mercurio]

"I know the importance of head space but if head space is such a big deal then, why don't RCBS and other manufacturers address the issue in their basic loading instructions in their kits so, back to my original statement when I say that if I follow directions for the sizing die and other aspects of reloading, I won't need an electron microscope and my loads should be safe."

After all the posts on this I'm not sure you understand what has been presented. Headspace is chamber specific. You use the die to resize the cartridge to either fit every chamber ever made, or you use it to resize the cartridge to fit YOUR chamber. The answer is in the prior posts and I'm not going to repeat any of it.

Don't overthink this.

 

[F. Guffey]

Greg Mercurio, too late. I agree with you. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel. To accomplish that a reloder must learn to measure the length of the chamber. For me the easiest way is to chamber a round and then pull the trigger. The safest way is to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Then there are those that insist on getting 45 firings from one case. Then there is the illusion 45 firings have no effect on the case.

Again, I have one rifle that has an additional .016" added to the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. For me? Not a problem. I add .014" to the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head to off set the length of the chamber.

In the perfect world the case fired in that rifle would be called a minimum length/full length sized case. Problem" The chamber is .002" longer than a filed reject length chamber. The up side, the case head protrusion is less than the case head protrusion for a Mauser by .020".

F. Guffey

 

[Ifishsum]

You are correct, sizing cases per the die manufacturer instructions should make for perfectly safe ammo. It just might not give you the brass life you might otherwise get. It's simply a refinement in technique, mainly to improve brass life - but not a requirement (except maybe in extreme cases). Done incorrectly, your ammo may not feed/chamber as it should. The die manufacturers try to keep their instructions as simple and as universal as possible so they will work safely for almost everyone.

 

[Bucksnort1]

Greg Mercurio,

The information provided by most responders falls into the category of TMI. Too Much Information. All I can say about your response is, you hit the nail squarely on the head in your assessment of me grasping what everyone has said. I'm not a power shooter and don't expect to get the maximum possible re-loadings from all my cases. I enjoy some casual shooting and enjoy reloading.

IFISHSUM, you too have hit the nail squarely on the head.

Thanks to both of you.

 

[Metal god]

The information provided by most responders falls into the category of TMI. Too Much Information.

hmm , TMI or TMI you are willing to except and understand ?

 

[F. Guffey]

The information provided by most responders falls into the category of TMI. Too Much Information.

You can say that again

Then there is more information than most can handle. For most handling too much information results in the purchase of another tool.

F. Guffey

 

[Bucksnort1]

Metal God,

I think Guffey is also confused by TMI or TMI. As Ricky would say to Lucy, esplain yourself. Is there more than one meaning for TMI?

 

[Metal god]

Is there more than one meaning for TMI?

Short answer no , long answer yes because there is context to the meaning . If you use it in saying " I never wanted or feel the need to know that " or you could mean " that's TMI for me to process " I'm sure there are others but that's the first two that come to mind

If you're talking about a bathroom visit , the first context would apply .

When talking about learning something pretty technical like sizing cases and headspacing off the shoulder . I'd hope you don't use the first context when it's your thread asking the question . Maybe you received more info then you wanted or expected but when the info is accurate and goes directly to the question . I don't see how you can have TMI .

 

[F. Guffey]

I think Guffey is also confused by TMI or TMI.

I could say "you can say that again" but I would be wasting my time.

Then there is a little back ground information, it does not cost anything so it could be a take it or leave it type of thing.

In the big inning there was the rim, the rim held the case to the rear, and then? There was the bottled neck case. Back to holding the case to the rear, H&H developed the belted case, The belt held the case to the rear. When the rim was used and later when the belt was used no consideration was given to what happened in front of the belt. The case just simply filled the chamber, I know there is case head separation but? And there is where too much information comes into play. The case body filling the chamber in front of the belt does not lock me nor does it drive me to the curb.

F. Guffey

 

[Bucksnort1]

Metal God,

I say again, if I follow resizing die instructions, check all cases for bulging, complete prepping the cases, ensure they chamber properly in the rifle then prime, charge and seat a bullet, I should be good to go. Do you agree with this?

 

[Metal god]

Until yesterday, I thought headspace on Weatherby belted cases (as well as other belted calibers), is set by the belt; however, after watching Larry Willis' (Innovative Technologies) video I received when I bought his belted case resizing die, he says to set the re-sizing/de-capping die, after the first firing, so the case sets headspace off the shoulder and not the belt. Later, I read the same thing in another publication.

Without getting several encyclopedias of explanation, will someone explain how I set my de-capping die to do this?

Or, should I not be concerned about headspace at the shoulder?

After re-reading your OP I see how I and others may have taken this thread farther then you wanted to go .

I does appear though you were asking for the extra info but your last line also seems to be looking for a quick end to the conversation .

Without getting several encyclopedias of explanation, will someone explain how I set my de-capping die to do this?

I believe you got very good answers to that question in this thread .

Or, should I not be concerned about headspace at the shoulder?

I also believe you received the answer to that question as well

You were shown how to size your cases to head space off the shoulder while at the same time were told by others It's not needed .

It's now up to you to decide what route you will take .

if I follow re-sizing die instructions, check all cases for bulging, complete prepping the cases, ensure they chamber properly in the rifle then prime, charge and seat a bullet, I should be good to go. Do you agree with this?

Yes , oh wait -------here comes the but ! But that was not the only thing asked about in the original post . Like most conversations ( which is how I look at these threads ) posters start talking to one-another all the while keeping the OP in mind . At some point and I may have missed you saying it . It appears you no longer cared or wanted to know about head spacing off the shoulder ( the first question in the OP )

So yes sizing your belted cases per the instructions is just fine . Guffey said it best when stating that the space between the chambers shoulder and the cases shoulder on a belted case gets filled with the case as the case expands under pressure . The head separation concern is less with belted cases because the belt holds the case back towards the breach .

I will not get into detail but that is not the case when using rimless cases like the 308 , 223 etc . If you start to reload those types of cases I'd recommend you revisit the sizing your case question again .

 

[Metal god]

So I was just thinking about head spacing a belted case off the shoulder and something accord to me . Assuming that it's correct to say the firing pin drives the case forward until it stops on what it head spaces on . In the case of a belted cartridge "the belt" . If a belted case were to be sized to where the shoulder stopped the case from moving forward which would leave a gap between the belt and the area of the chamber it normally stops on . Would having that gap there be the cause or make it more likely you get that brass bulge just in front of the belt ???

The leading edge of the belt is allowed to be anywhere from 0.212"-0.220" from the bottom end of the case. The chamber recess that the belt seats against may be anywhere from 0.220"-0.227" forward of the breech face. That means, if you buy a case with the minimum amount of belt distance from the back of the case and have a chamber cut with the maximum depth, you have a 0.015" gap between the two, and the case head will have to back up that much and will stretch some brass doing it.

Or based on the above quote , do you get the bulge no mater what when the case stretches back creating that same gap under pressure ??? Heck maybe even more likely this way because the case is getting thinner when it stretches in that same area ??? things that make you go hmm

 

[F. Guffey]

Or based on the above quote , do you get the bulge no mater what when the case stretches back creating that same gap under pressure ??? Heck maybe even more likely this way because the case is getting thinner when it stretches in that same area ??? things that make you go hmm

I received a call from a builder of bench rest type rifles. Seems he needed to form cases for rifles he was building. First: If he could have formed the cases he would not have called me. The first piece of equipment he wanted was 'the other shell holder'. He had 460 +/- a very few 8 Remington mag, 300 Weatherby,, 300 Winchester magnum cases with a few larger belted cases thrown in. 40 of the cases would not fit the #4 RCBS shell holder. Instead of 'the other shell holder' I brought a gasket cutting ball peen hammer. We saved the 40 upset cases till last, I suggested we use a collet in one of his lathes to reduce the diameter of the case ahead of the belt by at least .011", I suggested we reduce the diameter of the extractor groove, reducing the diameter of the extractor groove would allow the cases to fit the #4 RCBS shell holder. I explained to him the 40 cases that could not be sized and would not fit the shell holder had been hammered with heavy loads.

Upset case heads: Again, too much information, then there is that other part. The other part requires/forcing reloaders to think.

The firing pin and the part it plays in driving the case forward. I have killer firing pins. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel. I could suggest someone think about it but that has very seldom worked in the past.

F. Guffey

 

[Greg Mercurio]

When you ask someone what time it is on forums, you will get a range of answers from the correct time to the step-by-step instructions on how to build a watch.

Keeping it simple works for reloaders too.