Weapons Retention- Least Emphasized, Most Important

[JoeBlackSpade]

There are many other cases I can find, and I just won't post them, for the sake of brevity.

I'll post a couple more disarming techniques in the next couple of days.

God bless. Be safe.

 

[Capt. Charlie]

Those of you following this thread have probably noticed that one particularly rude post has been deleted, along with a couple of responses.

Hopefully, that'll get this back on track.

The author of the offending post knows it was uncalled for and should count this as his one and only official warning.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

A brief comment on my background:

At the Presidential Retreat, Camp David, in Maryland, there are several different Marine units, including a unique, dedicated force which conducts "reactionary" duty.

As with all things Presidential, the name of a unit which serves the President is always followed by the official designation of the number "one". There is Marine One, HMX-1, Air Force One, and so on. For the Presidential Response Force, the title is Force One. I was privileged to serve as part of this team, and eventually lead it as an NCO, under the commanding officer, with distinction. The mission was:

-Respond to, locate, close with, and neutralize any and all threats to POTUS (President of the United States), and/or FLOTUS (First Lady of the United States) by fire and maneuver. While the Secret Service is responsible for close personal protection for POTUS, Camp David is a sprawling resort, and security is augmented accordingly. Also, the Presidential Protective Detail (PPD) competent though they might be, can't repel a couple of battalions of Spetznaz. That's what WE were for.

While I won't go into details, training was superb, and our budgets were fairly unrestricted- unlike other Marine units which are rarely funded as they should be, yet are often held to high standards and expectations.

I also attended The Close Combat Instructor Course at Camp Geiger, under Master Gunnery Sergeant Donvito himself, and other schools, including CQB school at Chesapeake. I finished special duty at Camp David after meritorious promotion to Sergeant, and went back into the fleet where I served in other capacities.

If there aren't any questions, I'd like to get back to posting (AND READING ABOUT) some techniques, which is why I started the thread to begin with.
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[BillCA]

Joe,

Thank you for passing along the useful information. It's something not everyone thinks about.

On your technique, however, I have to disagree. I experimented without a partner for a few minutes, attempting to implement the technique and found it more complex than what I was taught. (PM me for my reasons).

The technique I was taught is based on the same technique to disengage someone who has grabbed your baton in the middle. This is to rotate the gun around, such that if the muzzle was up, your move was to rotate the gun around it's horizontal axis to muzzle down and/or muzzle down & towards your attacker. If the attacker still has a grip, rolling the gun over will usually break the grip.

Visual pattern. Muzzle up with you looking at the top of the gun (through the knuckles of your attacker). Rotate the muzzle to your left until it is beyond parallel to the ground. You can still see the 'top' of the gun. Now rotate the muzzle towards the attacker and down while rolling the grip upward. If the gun inverts, the muzzle should point past your right side. At this point, yank the gun back to your strong side, stiff arm his face with your weak hand whilst bringing the gun to bear.

The limitations imposed by the wrist and elbow will reduce your opponent's leverage and ability to maintain a grip. When done forcefully, it's very quick.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

Muzzle up with you looking at the top of the gun (through the knuckles of your attacker). Rotate the muzzle to your left until it is beyond parallel to the ground. You can still see the 'top' of the gun. Now rotate the muzzle towards the attacker and down while rolling the grip upward. If the gun inverts, the muzzle should point past your right side. At this point, yank the gun back to your strong side, stiff arm his face with your weak hand whilst bringing the gun to bear.

The limitations imposed by the wrist and elbow will reduce your opponent's leverage and ability to maintain a grip. When done forcefully, it's very quick.

Great description. This is the challenge we face when putting a technique into writing. Without walking through the steps, it can be confusing at times.

The technique you are describing is an excellent method of YANKING free by basically using force applied on the muzzle against THE BACK/OUTSIDE of the attacker's wrist- or outside edge of the attackers hand, after the initial PUSH. There is a technique in Kung Fu called sticky hands where you control your attacker's movements and keep him off balance by pushing and pulling. There's an element of that in your technique.

This is one of the fundamentals of retention- understanding the weaknesses and limitations of the joints.




This technique will break a hold, and will leave you in control.

If the attacker has those monkey fingers that won't let go, or if he's much bigger and stronger than you, you may have to employ a forearm across the wrist instead.


I think this is the perfect place to mention that we all have our favorites- and I like to use what a Gunny once taught me: "Learn everything you can, and put it in your grab bag. When you need it, you can pull something out and apply it as necessary. The more you have in your grab-bag, the more prepared you'll be."

 

[TWB]

JoeBlackSpade,
Thanks. This is a good subject, and one I know little about. Good information I hope I don't ever have to use.

twb

 

[w_houle]

Interesting thread
My Dad had some thoughts about this a while ago to me (as well as the virtues of owning a revolver for ccw) since I am not a skilled fighter the biggest thing I should worry about is that the gun stays mine, and to do that I grab the bottom of my right hand and part of my wrist with my left hand, my revolver goes into my right hand and I take the back of my right thumb and place it in my belly button and draw the stance in and squeeze the revolver handle for dear life.
I was wondering how you train for/ around slide bites or being sucker punched by slide recoil. If a BG has a hold on the slide what is the likelihood of their causing an out of battery situation, or causing a short cycle.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

Interesting thread
My Dad had some thoughts about this a while ago to me (as well as the virtues of owning a revolver for ccw) since I am not a skilled fighter the biggest thing I should worry about is that the gun stays mine, and to do that I grab the bottom of my right hand and part of my wrist with my left hand, my revolver goes into my right hand and I take the back of my right thumb and place it in my belly button and draw the stance in and squeeze the revolver handle for dear life.
I was wondering how you train for/ around slide bites or being sucker punched by slide recoil. If a BG has a hold on the slide what is the likelihood of their causing an out of battery situation, or causing a short cycle.

The chance of a malfunction (failure to fire, failure to feed, stove pipe, improperly seated magazine, etc.) is EXTREMELY HIGH. When training you should assume its 100%, meaning train that during the scuffle, you were able to fire the chambered round, but in the process the gun is jammed with a malfunction. As for an out of battery discharge, I'd be particularly concerned if you were using custom/ primers. Do you load your own ? There were some articles written- particularly on the Glock 21 and 19's, having problems all the time. If you carry a Glock, talk to an armorer about the feed-lips on Pre- 1990 MAGAZINES.

This is why its my opinion that all of the techniques that you practice with regards to retention should include the following IMMEDIATE ACTION DRILL, mentioned earlier in the thread:

Tap Rack Bang (pound or "tap" the magazine into the magazine well of the pistol, "Rack" the slide to chamber a fresh round, "bang" or fire on your attacker)

This is the immediate action that should follow EVERY recovery, every scuffle, every retention drill if you carry a semi automatic weapon.

Important observation.

As for "slide bites", I assume you use the "High Arch/ High Church" to cycle your slide. This is where your weak hand makes a little arch over your slide every time you want to cycle it. Occasionally- especially under stress and in uncomfortable positions, or in tight quarters, you might get the skin of your palm pinched or "bitten" by the slide action- often causing great pain, and more importantly, interfering with the proper chambering of a round.

Personally, I haven't had a "bite" in more than 10 years. I've used the "slingshot" method, taught to me by a CQB instructor since 1996. The Slingshot is where you rotate your weapon (keep the muzzle pointing at your target) like a Snoop Dogg gangster, so it is sideways. You then use your thumb and first two fingers to "pinch" the back end of the slide just like you would do with a slingshot. Pull back and release, in a slingshot motion, then immediately rotate the pistol back onto the target. No more bites.

Some Law Enforcement may have SOP that prohibits this.

I know some of the purists will say to NEVER USE THE SLINGSHOT, on the grounds that you are taking your sights off your target, but I completely disagree. A High Church obscures your vision for the same amount of time, and occasionally results in bites- especially if you wear gloves.

 

[nbk2000]

Weapon Retention/Weapon Denial

The techniques of weapon retention could be used against you as well.

A weapon that you have trapped in your holster is a weapon that you can't use either, and an assailant may be more interested in preventing you from using your weapon than in trying to take it away from you.

For a standard belt-mounted holster, the easiest way to deny the wearer from pulling it is to grab the bottom of the holster and pull it away from the hip, causing the weapons grip to angle in towards the body, making it impossible to draw.

(When ground grappling, this can be done by wedging your foot or shin between the opponents hip and holster, while simultaneously destroying their lower limbs with hands or knife.)

Don't even try and fight for the gun, as that's what most training is designed to defend against...as if no one in the world can resist the temptation of the gun and use any other weapon while in the presence of such a powerful talisman.

While they are sans gun, proceed to use your own weapon or empty-hand techniques to finish off the person who's skill resides solely in their gun, and not in their head.

Now, for the defender, there are ways and means of preventing the weapon from going out-of-battery when pressed into the attackers body for the kill-shot; the Alternative Force Block.

(I just came back from the store, where I saw, in this months issue of American Handgunner, that the 'centerfold' was of a pistol that had an AFB-type device on it...with a bayonet built in! )

Another means is by pressing against only bony parts of the body where there isn't enough flesh for the slide to sink in...such as the skull.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

the easiest way to deny the wearer from pulling it is to grab the bottom of the holster and pull it away from the hip, causing the weapons grip to angle in towards the body, making it impossible to draw.

Another standard, simple, fast, and effective technique. While this is old hat to you and me, not everyone has seen it, or heard of it.

I'm sure that there are readers on here that will find this helpful.

NBK, your sharing of this technique could save a life someday. That's exactly why I thought it could be useful! Thanks!

 

[nbk2000]

It is one of the simplest to remember and do, which is why I mentioned it.

But, as I said, it can also be used against you.

People should always view their tactics from the viewpoint of an attacker and ask themselves "Is this something that could be used against me?".

 

[PJW001]

With my sparring buddies this weekend we went thru the techniques listed. All of them were very interesting to practice & implement. As mentioned numerous times on different threads muscle memory is crucial. So we have started to incorporate these into our weekly sparring routines.

One possible option we found might be considered (and would be interested in comments from JBS):
-Opponent/attacker has gone for your holstered gun going across the body (using their right hand for instance to reach for my weapon on my right).
-As mentioned firmly grabbing their hand and my weapon with my right hand so it cannot be drawn.
-Quickly stepping back & turning to my right and with my left hand open jamming this into their arm at the elbow.
-At the least hyper-extending their arm and hopefully breaking their arm.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

Graphic and violent encounter.

And now, a particularly BRUTAL post:


First, nbk, I wanted to point out something about the technique you mentioned: that is, pulling the bottom of the holster out, away from your hip, in order to make it impossible for the weapon to be removed, by literally pressing the back of the weapon into the hip...

Those of you who use a tactical drop hip holster, of the style below, might not be able to use the technique, depending on the style of your holster, and how low on the hip it sits. Its advisable to check it out WITH YOUR HOLSTER on your body. Feel how flexible (or rigid) it might be. Does it have a tie down, like the pics below?

Of course, fewer of us are wearing these holsters, but the point is merely to illustrate the differences in holster length, and its something many of us take for granted. It might be worth a whole 2 minutes to examine just where your holster rests on your hip.

One possible option we found might be considered (and would be interested in comments from JBS):
-Opponent/attacker has gone for your holstered gun going across the body (using their right hand for instance to reach for my weapon on my right).
-As mentioned firmly grabbing their hand and my weapon with my right hand so it cannot be drawn.
-Quickly stepping back & turning to my right and with my left hand open jamming this into their arm at the elbow.
-At the least hyper-extending their arm and hopefully breaking their arm.

Simplicity is the key. The technique of rotating your hips away, to deny access to the weapon, while using a strong palm heel to the back of the grasping arm seems great. Personally, I'd caution against one VERY important thing:

If a grasping hand ever seizes a good, firm hold on the grip of your weapon, and you attempt to "throw" or break a joint in the direction of the attacker's momentum, he could BREAK your holster, or worse, he could end up taking you down. A successful break should mean compliance, however a failed break means not only was the attacker flying at you, but now he's latched on, and you've added to his inertia by twisting with him and palm-heeling the back of his grasping arm.

While redirection techniques are extremely effective, consider how you would react if, say, the attacker's four fingers managed to wedge themselves in between the grip and your hip as you turned. Your trapping strong hand would land on top, forming the seal, and then your weak-hand palm heel comes shooting through the elbow. Elbows are VERY hard to break using only a palm heel, unless the arm is already hyper extended, certainly much more force than breaking a wrist.

Even if his trapped arm, and stumbling body don't take you down with them, you may end up doing the "towel twirl", spinning around with a stubborn attacker glued to your grip, with you executing repeated palm heels to an elbow that refuses to go along with your intentions. Spinning around out of control no longer qualifies as the execution of a technique, and it will then turn into a stumbling wrestling match, twirling around and around until both of you land on the ground. While the image may seem humorous, it could end up being a dance of death.


Try this alternative:

The attacker, facing you, uses his right arm to sieze your holstered weapon, which is sitting on YOUR right hip.

As before, trap his grasping hand with your strong/drawing hand, as you step back with the right leg, to give you a good stable position. As you step back, place your LEFT hand on top of your right hand, to momentarily add trapping power. Lower your body, bending your knees, to absorb your attacker's advance. Last of all, take another step back, this time with your left foot.

Your body should now be torqued, with both hands on the weapon.

Now, explode your LEFT arm- palm out- into your attacker's face (aim for the bridge of the nose). Using a raking motion hook your fingers deep into one or both eye sockets. If you've ever gutted a fish, imagine shoving your fingers into the entrails of a huge salmon. Use the force of your torqued body to literally (ATTEMPT TO) pull his head down, towards your left thigh, with all of your might.

As you pull his head towards your left thigh, drive your LEFT KNEE into his spine, or just below the rib cage. If you strike him between the spine and the rib cage, you should hit the pancreas and kidneys. Unless he's wearing body armor, he'll probably collapse into a puddle of his own urine.


If he doesn't go down, follow up by drawing your weapon, and use a hammering motion to drive the grip/magazine of your weapon in his now hyper-extended throat, near the adams apple. Follow up with additional hammer strikes to the clavicles until his grip is released. Do not count on your weapon firing 100%, as the slide may have moved.

As soon as you break free, perform immediate action. TAP RACK BANG.

Striking the clavicles should make it impossible for him to hold on any longer, and the trachea will swell up from the throat strikes, making him extremely uncomfortable.

If he makes it through all that, he DESERVES your weapon.

 

[PJW001]

JBS,
I read with great interest your insight into my suggestion...you are spot on. Then carefully absorbed your additional suggestions....in one word...beautiful. It describes efficient and effective movements & actions. To be incorporated into next weeks sparring after we are all properly exhausted since IMHO that is when your guard is at its lowest.

Once again your posts and insights are appreciated. Thank you and please keep up the great work.
PJW

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

Glad you find value in this stuff, PJW.



Another technique, this time for retention from the rear.

You are standing somewhere, perhaps observing an event, a disagreement breaks out with a local thug. You stand there, talking to him, when his partner comes from behind you, attempting to seize your weapon. As with all of the other techniques, if your attacker is trying to take the weapon with one hand, you can be sure he'll probably be pummeling you with his free hand. If he's using both of his hands, you've got all of his strength to contend with, when retaining your weapon.







For the exercise:

Stand with feet shoulder width apart, as before. Your training buddy is behind you, facing you in the same way. He's a little less than arm's length away. He lunges forward and grabs your holstered weapon with his right hand, or with both hands (train alternatively either way), attempting to withdraw it from the holster.

Immediately place your drawing/strong hand on TOP of his grasping hand and push down, as before, trapping his hand on top of the weapon, and forcing it to stay put, in the holster.

As you are placing your trapping hand down on the grasping attacker's hand, drop your weight by 3 to 6 inches, by bending your knees, and lean at the torso, towards the weapon. Even if your attacker is stronger than you are, he won't be able to drive the pistol up and out, as your upper torso will physically be blocking it from sliding upwards.

Now, quickly mate your weak/non-draw hand on top of your strong hand, to add additional downwards force, and more firmly secure the weapon.

At this point, you are standing with your knees bent (lowered center of gravity), both hands on top of your attacker's hand(s) with the weapon on your hip and firmly seated in its holster. Your opponent is either pulling your weapon, trying to jerk it out of its holster, or he is trying to release you and get away. His free hand (if he didn't go for the weapon with BOTH hands) is striking you, probably on the back of your head. Your instinctive crouch may afford a tiny bit of protection, but not much.

Using your strong/drawing hand, release the holstered weapon (KEEP YOUR WEAK HAND ON TOP OF THE PISTOL and deliver several (3, 4 or even 5) quick, powerful elbow strikes to your attacker's head. Keep striking until his grip is released from the holster.

As SOON AS THE GRIP RELEASES, pull him across your body- using your weak hand, which should never have let go from its position on top of the holster, up until this point.

As you pull him forward and across your body, use your STRONG SIDE LEG to execute a "MULE KICK", straight back, attempting to drive the cutting edge of your heel through his knee. If you are physically inferior to him, or if you are not flexible, you may wish to attempt an alternative to this, which is driving your foot down on the arch of his foot. You want to stomp down hard enough to collapse a man-hole-cover.

After executing the mule kick/heel stomp, spin around facing him and push him away from you as hard as you can, using your palms against his torso.

Conduct immediate action (Tap Rack Bang) as described earlier.


Here's an illustration of a mule kick. Of course, for the purpose of the exercise, you'd be HOLDING his grasping wrist/hand/sleeves with your weak hand. Also, your intended target will be the knees/shins or alternatively, the arch of his foot.

A quick note
There may be several points, after the repeated elbow strikes to the head, where you will be able to release your attacker, or where he may fall away from you, or pull free and retreat. If at any time, you can get some seperation between you and your attacker, perform IMMEDIATE ACTION (TAP RACK BANG).


**If you are able to disorient him using your elbow strikes, you must follow up immediately, as some people can recover from this disorientation within as little as 2-3 seconds.


.

 

[BillCA]

You are standing somewhere, perhaps observing an event, a disagreement breaks out with a local thug. You stand there, talking to him, when his partner comes from behind you, attempting to seize your weapon. As with all of the other techniques, if your attacker is trying to take the weapon with one hand, you can be sure he'll probably be pummeling you with his free hand. If he's using both of his hands, you've got all of his strength to contend with, when retaining your weapon.

And you may have to contend with the original thug ganging up on you while you're trying to retain your weapon. If you see him move in, a side-kick to his abdomen or knees buys time to deal with the gun grabber.

Stand with feet shoulder width apart, as before. Your training buddy is behind you, facing you in the same way. He's a little less than arm's length away. He lunges forward and grabs your holstered weapon with his right hand, or with both hands (train alternatively either way), attempting to withdraw it from the holster.

Not to pick nits, but this is more related to open carried or uniformed LEO situations. For CCW no one should realize I'm armed unless my hand is already on my firearm.

Additionally, standing "square on" to a threat is never a good tactic. "Blading" the body by moving your gun side away (you face about 30 degrees towards your strong side) with your strong arm tucked just aft of your gun helps secure it from being blindsided.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

And you may have to contend with the original thug ganging up on you while you're trying to retain your weapon. If you see him move in, a side-kick to his abdomen or knees buys time to deal with the gun grabber.

Your priority should always be to retain the weapon.

I'm a huge advocate of crushing downwards towards the knees and shins of anyone advancing towards you.

Dispatch the guy closest to you (in this case the one grabbing the weapon), and then move outward, targetting threats that are further away.

Not to pick nits, but this is more related to open carried or uniformed LEO situations. For CCW no one should realize I'm armed unless my hand is already on my firearm.

Something has gone terribly wrong if you are using techniques described here. Techniques revolving around hip holsters are listed here because there are many Concealed Carriers that wear a hip holster, which is hidden by a jacket or coat.

Besides blatant grabs in broad daylight, there are other conditions where retention techniques may be called upon. As listed earlier:

1.) You draw, fire and miss; no one's a perfect shot.

2.) if your attacker has spotted your concealed weapon- unknown to you

3.) your weapon misfires as your attacker charges, giving him time to close the distance

4.) you are subjected to attack by multiple assailants, and cannot stop them all.

5.) your attacker is struck, but is not stopped before he closes the distance, as occurs with those on certain types of drugs

6.) you discover that your attacker is a threat, but only after he has gotten close enough to attack you suddenly, and without warning.


While the primary beneficiaries of certain techniques are those who carry openly, such as security guards and Law Enforcement Officers, in a number of states, it is lawful to carry your weapon openly on your hip, even if you are a civilian. If a few of the techniques described here do not fit you, then throw them in your "grab bag", and leave them there in the off chance you may someday need 'em. In some cases, you can also look at modifying the technique to fit your preferred method of carry.

Additionally, standing "square on" to a threat is never a good tactic. "Blading" the body by moving your gun side away (you face about 30 degrees towards your strong side) with your strong arm tucked just aft of your gun helps secure it from being blindsided.

Great point. Standing square is something that should only be done as a starting point- IN TRAINING. It merely describes your physical position, as you start a technique.

As you approach a potential threat- or as the threat approaches you- you should immediately blade to a position that creates the maximum distance between your weapon and your attacker. See opening posts for additional details on this position, and movement.


Of course, for the purpose of training, and to maximize your understanding of these techniques, you want to simulate being caught totally by surprise. The position of being "square" in the preceding technique is to simulate you carrying out some mundane task- i.e., distracted by conversation, checking out at a fuel station, etc. For this particular technique, someone surprises you from the rear, as you feel him aggressively tugging at your holstered weapon.

 

[nbk2000]

A thought...

What if you are standing 'square on' to someone, and they make a move, you move to turn your weapon away from them and, instead of just moving your gun-side leg back, you do a mule-kick or something similiar as SOP, so that if there IS someone coming up behind you, you've kicked him without even having seen him first, giving you an extra moment to deal with the threat in front of you?

Obviously, if in a crowd, you might kick the wrong person, or an innocent because there is no one else involved, but the risk of someone getting killed by a snatched gun, or in the attempt to snatch it, far outweighs the minor injury of a kick I would think.

 

[restlessnomad]

^ I'd agree, some might not..........but you can just kick them again.

Thank you Blackspade for some fantastic information. I'll have to get my roommate to be the guinea pig!

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

nbk, there are other techniques where I have taught that certain things should be "automatic".

One of those things is what we call "pick up the telephone" and it describes a defensive boxing-style position, where your hands should come up (and stay up), like a boxer after EACH and EVERY strike. Of course this is our way of telling the trainee "Your bell is gonna get rung, you better PICK UP THE TELEPHONE". That's what a trainee would hear from a coach, if he has a tendency to drop his hands down to his side, either from inflated self-confidence, or lack of discipline.

Of those "automatic" things, I can't really see a mule kick being one of them. Rather, I'd suggest "automatically" turning your head 90 degrees to the right and left periodically, using your peripheral vision to see behind you.

There are other ways to look behind you, some less conspicuous. If you have a cell phone, you can use its screen (under certain circumstances) to see a reflection of what is behind you. If you are in a strip mall/shopping center, you can use the glass in front of the stores as a way of seeing reflections behind you. A Jewelry store window on a bright sunny day can act almost as clearly as a mirror. I wear large dark aviator-style sunglasses. If I ever feel the need to see behind me discretely, I can take them off, hold them close to my face and inspect them. As I do, everything behind me becomes crystal clear. Are those three thugs sizing me up? I can size them up without being "made".

Practice situational awareness, and use kicking or striking actions as you see fit, but don't incorporate extra moves like this into your training drills. Please make the distinction here: Training is important for EVERY technique, but DRILLS are sequences of moves that you practice precisely so that they get burned into your muscle-memory until they become reflex. If you train the mule kick into your drills, you are training your muscle-memory to react that way, and such a move is not easy to execute without losing or impacting your balance, unless there is something there to absorb the impact. Executing the move in real life, blindly, could end up leaving you a little off balance.

The guy on the right has his left hand up in the "telephone" defensive position. Unfortunately, his right hand is down by his hips!

Another fighter, with a tendency to drop his hands, this time the left hand. A "telephone" here would have kept this fighter around a little longer.


This thread is a weapons retention thread, so I won't go into unarmed combat, however from time to time, its important to note certain principles that retention techniques have in common with unarmed self-defense. Among these common principles are fundamentals such as

*balance
*movement
*aggression
*speed
*violence of action