Weapon mounted lights and felony aggravated assault.

[buckhorn_cortez]

The BG will need to have a light source of some sort and therefore give away his position while leaving you concealed.

Is there some kind of rule book on this where all bad guys are required to have light?

What if the bad guy is using night vision equipment? What if it's a full moon, snow on the ground, drapes / blinds are open and the room is lit naturally?

To many variables to make this a "for sure" = bad guy has a light.

 

[Grizz12]

Is there some kind of rule book on this where all bad guys are required to have light?

What if the bad guy is using night vision equipment? What if it's a full moon, snow on the ground, drapes / blinds are open and the room is lit naturally?

To many variables to make this a "for sure" = bad guy has a light.

No rule book, common sense...

The BG having night vision? Really?? They'er gonna spend any extra money they have on drugs or weapons, not expensive night vision. If anything, the home owner should have night vision but I have never heard ore read of anyone buying it for HD reasons

Full moon, snow on the ground, drapes / blinds are open and the room is lit naturally? Then you will also be able to see, right?

 

[Moomooboo]

No rule book, common sense...

The BG having night vision? Really?? They'er gonna spend any extra money they have on drugs or weapons, not expensive night vision. If anything, the home owner should have night vision but I have never heard ore read of anyone buying it for HD reasons

Full moon, snow on the ground, drapes / blinds are open and the room is lit naturally? Then you will also be able to see, right?

I dont know why so many of you operate on the assumption that criminals are dumb. There are plenty who are smart and smarter than you. They also dont all do drugs. Youre not giving the "enemy" enough respect and are underestinating them.

But i agree the chance of meeting someone with nods is probably low. Nonetheless like the odds of needing your gun, it probably exists.

 

[Lost Sheep]

There is no prohibition against having a weapon-mounted light AND a hand-held light.

I have observed that a sufficiently narrow-beam WML is an aiming aid almost as effective as (and easier to pick up than) a Weapon Mounted Laser.

If you lose your hand-held light or it malfunctions you still have the WML and the spillover when you point it at a light-colored ceiling is terrific.

Options. Lots of them.

Lost Sheep

 

[Grizz12]

I dont know why so many of you operate on the assumption that criminals are dumb. There are plenty who are smart and smarter than you. They also dont all do drugs. Youre not giving the "enemy" enough respect and are underestinating them.

But i agree the chance of meeting someone with nods is probably low. Nonetheless like the odds of needing your gun, it probably exists.

I'm not saying anybody is smart or dumb, my point is they cant see in the dark any better than you can.

As for respecting and understanding the enemy, I guess I don't understand your point? In a war time situation its VERY important to understand and respect the enemy because it is an ongoing offensive and defensive event. A home invasion is defensive and the only understanding I have of the intruder is that they are in my home to do harm to me and my family which will result in me using any and every means available to defend my/our lives.

The BG could be a druggie, a whacked nut job, a gang banger looking to make his bones or a hundred other "types" of BG's. The one thing they have in common is:

1) they are trespassing on my property and looking to kill me/us in order to get to my property

And if some of them are as smart as you say, they would have a job and not be breaking into peoples homes.

 

[Grizz12]

Here a good video where the good guy wins against 3 BG's

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/05/2...NSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-=Weekly+Newsletter

 

[Moomooboo]

Uh grizz. It censored parts of your link

 

[Moomooboo]

I'm not saying anybody is smart or dumb, my point is they cant see in the dark any better than you can.

As for respecting and understanding the enemy, I guess I don't understand your point? In a war time situation its VERY important to understand and respect the enemy because it is an ongoing offensive and defensive event. A home invasion is defensive and the only understanding I have of the intruder is that they are in my home to do harm to me and my family which will result in me using any and every means available to defend my/our lives.

The BG could be a druggie, a whacked nut job, a gang banger looking to make his bones or a hundred other "types" of BG's. The one thing they have in common is:

1) they are trespassing on my property and looking to kill me/us in order to get to my property

And if some of them are as smart as you say, they would have a job and not be breaking into peoples homes.

Grizz. Youre still operating under the old assumption that criminals are dumb and lazy. Just because youre smart doesnt mean youll have a legit job. Im betting many mob bosses wouldve been stellar CEOs had they gone the legit route. I mean they were in charge of a couple thousand person organization making millions. Mafias, mobs, cartels, gangs are all business organizations in the end and stupid people cant run them. Keep that in mind.

As for respecting the jntruder, im saying dont just say theyre stupid and underestimate them. There are plenty of smart ones out there, smarter than you or I, ones who have been doing it for years while youve been doing it for a seconds that night.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

I use WML's religiously and I highly recommend them. If you're pulling your gun out in the first place, you've already made that decision based on feeling threatened in some manner. Plenty of gray areas. I'd rather have on than not. I even CC with a WML sometimes. That's not to say I don't carry a handheld light as well. If the gun is out its for a reason. If not, I use my surefire handheld.

 

[Grizz12]

The link worked for me??? I'm not a computer guy so I cant help

I'm not underestimating their intelligence, I don't care how smart they are. If they break into my home, they are there to do me harm and I will react to the best of my abilities to defend myself.

Grizz. Youre still operating under the old assumption that criminals are dumb and lazy. Just because youre smart doesnt mean youll have a legit job. Im betting many mob bosses wouldve been stellar CEOs had they gone the legit route. I mean they were in charge of a couple thousand person organization making millions. Mafias, mobs, cartels, gangs are all business organizations in the end and stupid people cant run them. Keep that in mind.

Mob bosses are NOT the ones breaking into homes, they are the ones collecting "rent" from their underlings. And it wasn't their leadership skills that took them to the top of the food chain, it was the ability to break knee caps and kill their way to the top. That being said, it makes no difference to me whether its the mob boss or an underling breaking into my home, I will react the same way

 

[Moomooboo]

The link worked for me??? I'm not a computer guy so I cant help

I'm not underestimating their intelligence, I don't care how smart they are. If they break into my home, they are there to do me harm and I will react to the best of my abilities to defend myself.



Mob bosses are NOT the ones breaking into homes, they are the ones collecting "rent" from their underlings. And it wasn't their leadership skills that took them to the top of the food chain, it was the ability to break knee caps and kill their way to the top. That being said, it makes no difference to me whether its the mob boss or an underling breaking into my home, I will react the same way

I think were on 2 different wavelengths. I was simply addressing the dont underestimate criminals aspect.

As for bosses in crime scenes, they all started somewhere. And yea though their retaliatory and motivational methods are much harsher, nonetheless they lead large organizations which cannot be done without being a leader. But there is the whole business aspect of supply chain logistics along with finance which they managed with their "CFO" and "COO", they wouldnt be at the top without having a good business model as every organization needs money and communication to run. You cannot deny leadership. Heck the way the crime bosses conduct business is exactly how they did it in the middle ages, and it still took a leader to lead.

Anyways like i said,i think were on 2 different wavelengths.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Sharkbite:

Todays lights throw enough spill to avoid needing to point the gun directly at a person to ID them.

Do not assume for a moment that one must point a gun directly at someone to get into trouble.

The person i illuminated is a stranger rooting thru the china cabinet. I now have an advantage. They are blinded with 200 lumens in their eyes. I can CLEARLY see them and am prepaired to engage if they act threatening.

What about the other guy?

 

[Sharkbite]

The OP asks about pointing a WML at someone IN YOUR HOUSE

Posted by Sharkbite:
Quote:
Todays lights throw enough spill to avoid needing to point the gun directly at a person to ID them.
Do not assume for a moment that one must point a gun directly at someone to get into trouble.

Quote:
The person i illuminated is a stranger rooting thru the china cabinet. I now have an advantage. They are blinded with 200 lumens in their eyes. I can CLEARLY see them and am prepaired to engage if they act threatening.
What about the other guy?

Im unaware of ANY criminal complaint that would stand up 10seconds for me pointing my gun at someone unknown to me in my HOUSE. As for indirectly lighting the room with a WML. What possible crime is that?

 

[OldMarksman]

Post by Sharkbite:

Im unaware of ANY criminal complaint that would stand up 10seconds for me pointing my gun at someone unknown to me in my HOUSE.

I am. Consult a criminal defense attorney, or speak to your county prosecutor. They are so aware, or will be able to make themselves knowledgeable.

In your house, your defense of justification will be much easier than elsewhere, but you will still have to produce at least some evidence in support of a reasonable belief they the entry had been unlawful and in some jurisdictions, forcible or tumultuous.

A lack of awareness that someone may have been invited in would be unlikely to suffice.

As for indirectly lighting the room with a WML. What possible crime is that?

Depends on the jurisdiction. In Arizona, aggravated assault. In Missouri, displaying a firearm in a careless or threatening manner.

Unless, of course, you can successfully mount a defense of justification.

That is not my reason for not having a weapon mounted light. I am more concerned about safety.

And remember that in the event of injury, a plaintiffs standard of proof is much lower than in a criminal procesution.

 

[JeffK]

The OP asks about pointing a WML at someone IN YOUR HOUSE

Right, wording and standards may differ but certainly in California (one of the worst states in the union for guns control laws), if someone invades your house and you have a "reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury", you can use deadly force and you are not required to retreat. Weapon light or not.

Folks can do what they wish, but I'm not going to spend a microsecond worrying about whether or not a prosecutor claims the TLR4 on my HK45 is evidence that I'm the aggressor, not the defender, because if I ever fire it at someone I'm going to be 100% certain that that person is an invader, and I'm going to verify that with the light and I'm very likely to hit because I'm using the laser.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by JeffK:

...I'm not going to spend a microsecond worrying about whether or not a prosecutor claims the TLR4 on my HK45 is evidence that I'm the aggressor, not the defender, because if I ever fire it at someone I'm going to be 100% certain that that person is an invader, and I'm going to verify that with the light and I'm very likely to hit because I'm using the laser.

I cannot imagine any prosecutor making such an argument.

The issue is that when you use the light to illuminate an area in which someone mat be, you would be pointing a gun in that direction.

And spending upon what turns out to be going on, that may or may not be justifiable.

 

[T. O'Heir]

Make your pictures smaller. 1632 x 918 is far too big.
Massad is a good guy, but forgets there are defense lawyer with brains. Any one of 'em would have any charge thrown out in seconds if somebody was in your house uninvited. A silly light hanging off a firearm won't matter.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by T. O'Heir:

Massad is a good guy, but forgets there are defense lawyer with brains.

Smart defense lawyers routinely hire Massad, when he will take their cases.

Any one of 'em would have any charge thrown out in seconds if somebody was in your house uninvited.

Not so fast. That may not be sufficient.

In Missouri, a lay person's reading of the law will take one right to the word"uninvited", but lawyers, legal scholars, and the state's highest court tell us that there's more to it than that. One does not want to make any important assumptions except in a case of immediate necessity.

And he or she might well have been invited by someone else, or have a basis for believing that he or she had been.

How would you feel if your ride to the airport got the date wrong, found the door ajar, walked in, say someone with a flashlight, and shot you? No, most probably not excusable, but painful nonetheless, and very avoidable.

You do not want to wave a gun around for the purpose of finding out who is doing what in your house.

A silly light hanging off a firearm won't matter.

Of course it won't. That is patently obvious.

But what you do with that gun might matter a great deal.

A sperate flashlight does not put anyone at such risk.

 

[Mas Ayoob]

For perspective, as the guy who wrote the article in question, I have no problem with any householder taking a true "intruder" at gunpoint, and never said otherwise. My point in articles on the topic of WMLs is that using the gun-mounted light for searching points a loaded gun at everything in the light beam.

There are numerous circumstances where the bump in the night could have been caused by a teenager invited in unknown to us by one of our own kids, or a person we had entrusted with a key to our house arriving unannounced, a spouse unexpectedly returning home a night early from a business trip, etc.

Even if the person pointing the gun keeps their finger out of the trigger guard, pointing a loaded gun at someone is still construable as aggravated assault if it turns out to be someone who had a right to be there. While they may or may not make that complaint, it will still have been a traumatic experience all the way around.

While the idea of keeping the muzzle down and using the periphery of the light beam to scan sounds good in theory, in practice it's human nature for us to reflexively center the beam on anything that attracts our attention, which brings the light-mounted gun back onto a human target.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

There are numerous circumstances where the bump in the night could have been caused by a teenager invited in unknown to us by one of our own kids, or a person we had entrusted with a key to our house arriving unannounced, a spouse unexpectedly returning home a night early from a business trip, etc.

Which is why a verbal challenge is a better idea than playing "hunt the burglar" with a flashlight.