Weak Recoil Spring??

g.willikers said:
For an attempt to answer Corona's original question of how to judge when a recoil spring should be replaced,
How about when the at rest length gets shorter than normal, and the coils become closer together?
Click to expand...

The problem is that it's hard to determine what is "normal." All coil springs will quickly take a set when put to work, and that is taken into consideration when the spring is made -- the designers know it will shorten. A brand new recoil spring will always be longer than one that's been used just a few weeks, but both will arguably do the job.

The best way is to use the gun and see if it continues to function properly.

As others have noted, seeing spent brass be sent great distances is a hint that a spring might need to be replaced. A spring that doesn't have enough stored force to close the slide, or one that's too strong to let the gun cycle properly are both candidates for replacement.
 
OP Question

For an attempt to answer Corona's original question of how to judge when a recoil spring should be replaced,
How about when the at rest length gets shorter than normal, and the coils become closer together?
Click to expand...

My signal that a spring needs to be replaced is when the slide starts to feel sluggish on the return to battery when the gun is moderately dirty...usually during a firing session between 100-150 rounds. With my (1911) pistols, this has averaged between 8-10k for 5-inch guns with 16-pound springs and a bit less with 14-pounds.

It might be well to note that I only use 16 pound springs in my range beaters because all my ammunition is handloaded with my home cast bullets and soft lube. They get pretty funky in a typical session...252 rounds per gun...and I don't like the possibility of having to break them down to clean and add oil before I run out of ammo. So, I use 16 pound springs to insure a clean return to battery. For all other uses with jacketed ammo, 14 pounds is a gracious plenty.

And the impact abutments...and the guide rod heads...are fine, in spite of the pair approaching 400,000 rounds through both pistols collectively, about evenly split.

And I don't shoot "soft" ammunition. The 200-grain SWC with 6 grains of Unique clocks 870-875 fps.
 
Hi, Tuner,

For fun, think about the dead blow hammer you mention. What is its purpose? The answer is that it doesn't bounce. But if a hammer hitting steel doesn't bounce, why would there be any need for a dead blow hammer? All hammers would be dead blow, wouldn't they?

Jim
 
"Momentum". Momentum is always conserved/preserved in a collision of parts. How many here play pool? You know how to impart a perfect-elastic or an inelastic collision when you apply the energy to the projectile/part/cue-ball. Like materials (celluloid/celluloid, plastic/plastic, steel/steel etc.) will (can—all else being equal) provide perfect-elastic collisions. Dissimilar materials (steel/alluminium, steel/polymer) will exhibit unbalanced, or less-elastic collisions. The denser material wins and returns more energy (momentum) into the fight. Perfect-elastic collisions will transmit more felt-recoil to the shooter. The recoil-spring does a lot to convert a potential elastic-collision into an inelastic-collision.

Changing the recoil spring at regular intervals may not be necessary, but it will help remove perfect-elastic collisions... slowing the plastic wear of a material.
-SS-
 
I keep hearing 14-pound and 16-pound springs. What is the exact definition? 14 or 16 pounds of force per inch of compression?

When to replace a spring? What weight of spring to use? No point arguing about it. Replace it when you feel like it, and whatever weight you feel like it. Try and make up your own mind.

-TL
 
Dead Blow

For fun, think about the dead blow hammer you mention. What is its purpose? The answer is that it doesn't bounce. But if a hammer hitting steel doesn't bounce, why would there be any need for a dead blow hammer? All hammers would be dead blow, wouldn't they
Click to expand...

Hi, Jim.

As a machinist, you know that a dead blow hammer is used to settle a workpiece into a vise or a fixture before machining operations. The vise or fixture is solid and doesn't "give" when struck. Hands do. As I mentioned...mounted in a heavy vise...the slide may bounce a little. Hand held, it doesn't.

I'm the guy pulling the trigger in that video, and I assure you that the slide didn't rebound. That wasn't my first demonstration. I've done it many times over the years with many pistols...including a LW Commander...mostly to debunk the myth that the recoil spring keeps the breech from unlocking too early and to show that the slide doesn't hit the frame with enough force to do the damage that is so often claimed.

It might also be interesting to note that the ejected brass didn't sail away onto the adjacent property. It probably didn't hit the ground more than a foot from where it falls when the gun operates with a spring in place.
 
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I keep hearing 14-pound and 16-pound springs. What is the exact definition? 14 or 16 pounds of force per inch of compression?
Click to expand...

The spring is rated two ways. At full compression...or compressed to a specified length...and at full slide travel as installed in the gun. The former is used for advertised figures.

The original blueprint specs for the 1911 didn't specify it in pounds. It was given as 32 and 3/4ths coils of .043 diameter music wire. Compared to Wolff's 32 coil 14-pound spring for the 5-inch gun, that works out to about 14.5 pounds at full compression. At full slide travel installed...it's rated at 13.5 pounds nominally.
 
Conservation of momentum. Things always bounce upon impact.

Conservation of energy. Energy stored in compressed ACTION spring plus kinetic energy of slde equals a constant. Stiffer spring means more energy stored in spring and less slide kinetic energy. Slide transfers its energy to the frame when it is stopped by the spring sleeve. It may not be enough to effect damage immediately, but more impacting energy nonetheless.

An infinitely stiff spring, a solid steel rod, means no brass ejection. No spring means maximum brass ejection. Anything inbetween must be function of spring stiffness, or weight.

A short but stiff spring , and a long but soft spring can have same spring force when the slide is fully retracted. But they function rather differently in the gun.

Point? There is none.

-TL
 
Bouncy

Conservation of momentum. Things always bounce upon impact.
Click to expand...

Unless something absorbs the shock.

Watch the video.

If that slide moves forward after impact, it's not enough to shine a light on...and that was firing it without a spring. Adding a spring would absolutely keep it from rebounding.
 
In the world of shooting fast and accurately, IE competition, the consensus it to run lighter than normal springs. Since the recoil (or action) spring has nothing to do with ignition, it is a prime candidate for replacement.

From my personal experience, my 1911 started with a 16 pound spring and I have gone from that, to a 14.5 and now use a 12.5 spring with no adverse effects. My 1911 is a Dan Wesson, is tightly fit and I shoot cast lead bullets. Even then I still get about 300 rounds out of it before the slide starts to get sluggish from gunk on the rails. That number is x2 for jacketed ammo. My personal view is that 14.5 is good for factory ammo, with 12.5 being fine as well and perfect for the slightly less than full power ammo that most of us reload.

This video explains it well, with high speed camera footage to illustrate the point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3UVLm2GajI
 
I'm a 1911 guy. I have a large collection of them but in the last year or two, have settled into two guns, my EDC and my "range gun." I normally shoot about 250 rounds per gun per range outing and am at the range not less than three times a week.

My range gun has the recoil spring changed when the spent brass begins to go different places than I am using to seeing and/or I get feeding/ejection failures. I keep a bag of springs in my range bag.

My EDC gun gets the spring changed every 3000 rounds. Overkill? Most likely. But for $7 I am not going to have my protection fail me when I need it the most.
 
I decide when to change or replace them depending on how and where the empty brass is ejected, which does not help you much if you shoot at a range with "stalls".

In 1911 land a friend told me it should be called a "return to battery" spring not a recoil spring since a 1911 will fire once without one.

Wolff springs will sell you more than enough springs to have fun with of course.
 
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