We always say "THE LAWYERS DID IT!"

I have manuals from back in the 1960s. and current ones.

AND YES, IT IS THE LAWYERS!

Just like everything else in life, companies have reduced performance, lowered capabilities, etc on everything, not just reloads.

I hear about changes to powder. Baloney! I have some 30 year old 2400, and last summer, I loaded a few rounds of .44 magnum with the old powder, and some with powder from a new can to test the theory.

The chronograph shows the same velocity for the same charge.

But, like everything else in today's life, 99 percent of us get punished because one percent are idiots that are too stupid to read the instructions.:mad:
 
Gnomes.

Blame the gnomes.



Personally I think it has a lot more to do with increasing precise methods of measuring chamber pressure.
 
Gnomes.

Blame the gnomes.



Personally I think it has a lot more to do with increasing precise methods of measuring chamber pressure. Mike Irwin
That's possible, Mike. but the max loads (and velocities) have decreased so much that I pay no attention to so-called "max" in manuals written after about 1995.

And these decreases in ammo performance have occurred at the same time that gun steel quality and strength has INCREASED exponentially.
 
"And these decreases in ammo performance have occurred at the same time that gun steel quality and strength has INCREASED exponentially."

No bold? No caps?

:)

Are you SURE that there's been an exponential increase in quality and strength since 1995?

I sincerely doubt it.

There have been a few new super-strong steel blends that have come out in the past few years, but by and large we're still locked into the same steels that have been used since just after World War II.

There's been little to no reason to go with the ne plus ultra every time something new comes out. Those blends tend to be a LOT more expensive, harder to work, and basically aren't necessary.

Finally, to be brutally honest, I'm not entirely sure why people get so -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- off about this.

Does anyone really want to load their .308 to 90,000 psi to be able to send a 165-gr. bullet downrange and 3,900 fps?

If you can do what you want/need to do with the cartridges you have and the formulas that are in the books, you either need a new tool (larger cartridge) or you need to be doing something completely different.
 
For me, it's never been about wanting, hoping or attempting to make one cartridge do something outside it's useful range that could better be done by the NEXT cartridge. And folks say this all the time when they don't have anything tangible to add.

It's about using the entire range of what you -DO- have and learning about it's limits, why those limits are in place and how everyone's view of those limits have changed or evolved over time.

Don't use the same tired cop-out to rubber-stamp the conversation "OVER" because the answer to "how heavy can you load .357 Magnum" is never and not ever going to be "pffft, .44 Magnum, sheesh"

That is a tired, far too used and lame deflection.
 
"For me, it's never been about wanting, hoping or attempting to make one cartridge do something outside it's useful range that could better be done by the NEXT cartridge. And folks say this all the time when they don't have anything tangible to add."

So, then, what exactly are YOU wanting? I've read through your posts on this matter several times, and I'll be damned if I can figure out exactly what you're ticked about.

And I fail to see how recommending that people don't try to wring ++++++++++P performance out of their .22-250 in hopes of turning it into an all around 5 continent gun isn't tangible.

If the companies truly wanted us to be 100% safe, then why don't they simply stop providing reloading data all together?
 
What I want from a .357 Magnum (for example) is precisely what I stated above: to be able to enjoy it's entire safe range, and not have someone suggest, if I hint, say, show that I have taken it to the far end "that's silly, just get a .44 Magnum" :rolleyes:

In any case, THAT ^ is not at all the point of this discussion.

This purpose of this thread is we have seen many examples of published load data having been lowered over many years and/or decades time and I simply don't buy the often flipped answer "meh, it's because of liability lawyers, that's why"

I have seen no evidence to suggest that liability lawyers have had a say in lowering published loads. I am of the camp that published loads were HIGHER in years gone by because we simply didn't have the technology to measure precisely what those loads were doing.
If the companies truly wanted us to be 100% safe, then why don't they simply stop providing reloading data all together?
I made a similar argument very much above in that if the companies truly wanted us safe, they would eliminate *ANY* suggestions of using extremely fast burning powder in high pressure (or even simply cavernously large) revolver rounds because it certainly seems that nearly EVERY time someone has a big -OOPS- and KB's a round, it happens with a very fast burning powder.

You can drop all the H110 that you and God can fit in to a piece of .44 Magnum brass but it will NEVER go nuclear in the manner that a double or triple shot of Bullseye will.
 
I know that the .357 and .44 Magnums have been downloaded by the factories due to real full power .357's tear up the model 19 and 66 S&Ws. Also, original full power .44 Mags, especially those made by Winchester back then did a number on the S&W M29's and the 629s as well. I have a box of 158 gr. Winchester .357 Mag. ammo and those loads are hell for stout compared to current ammo. Loads for the .357 in late 1950's ran something like 15.5 gr. of H2400. Some of that early .357 ammo I had as loose ammo were pulled and the charge looked like H2400 and was 15.5 gr. I broke down five rounds and the variance was plus or minus one tenth grain. Current A2400 seems to be a bit faster burning, regardless of what Alliant says so I stick with the current max of 14.0 grs. Shoots well enough to suit me. Elmer's load of 22.0 g. of H2400 is apparently now considered as too much for the M29/620 and 20.0 gr. is considered max. I know that Elmer's load would tear my 629 a new one in 200 to 250 full power loads and even that 20.0 gr. load loosens things up in a hurry. The 629 now sits more as a safe queen and my Ruger Blackhawks and Redhawks tackle the full power handloads.
I have not yet had the pleasure :confused: of shooting one of the .357 Mag. snubbies like the M60 and frankly, have no desire even with the lower powered loads now sold as full power.
Paul B.
 
NOT THE LAWYERS (except maybe sometimes).

The SAAMI standards, which you can download free from their web site, have not changed since 1992 for rife and 1993 for handguns. When you read the standard, for every cartridge there are standard bullet weights with standard velocities listed. Those numbers are also unchanged since those dates.

Neither have pressure standards changed since those dates, except to add more cartridges than were listed back then. The method of measuring them has moved away from the copper crusher and toward the conformal piezoelectric transducer. The copper crusher is a poor measurement system for absolute accuracy and it disagrees with the transducer result in most instances. It is also non-linear at the higher pressures, tending to under-report them significantly.

For example, if you take the same lot of 357 Magnum pressure reference ammunition and fire a ten round sample for average pressure in a SAAMI copper crusher, it reads the assessed pressure of the reference ammunition, with about a 25% range of disagreement among different copper crushers operated by different people. But if we suppose it read 45,000 psi, if you put sample rounds from that exact same lot of reference ammunition into a SAAMI conformal piezoelectric transducer, it would read 35,000 psi with about 12% range of disagreement among different transducers. If you had put the same lot of reference ammunition into a CIP copper crusher (now obsolete) it would have read 3200 bar (≈46,400 psi; they never adopted the CUP or its equivalent). If you put it into a CIP channel piezoelectric transducer, it reads 3000 bar (≈43,500 psi). CIP claims their channel transducer system is accurate within 2% of absolute. I have no idea how they arrived at that conclusion. It is likely a statistical result based on what is actually consistency, but without reading how they arrived at that conclusion, I don't really know.

So, does anyone believe we actually know what the absolute pressure of a 357 Magnum is? Fortunately, we don't have to. The way the reference ammunition concept works is that one SAAMI member manufacturer, in this case Remington, is responsible for producing reference ammunition for the whole industry to the same standard. Everyone who measures pressure fires ten reference loads, and, regardless of what average pressure their instrument reads with those loads, they consider it to be whatever the assessed pressure of the reference load is. If their reading falls outside the inclusive limits for the reference load, they scale their reading to match and scale all their other readings that day with that same adjustment factor. So the instruments don't have to be absolutely accurate, they just have to be repeatable.

From the above, you can see that when load data are developed in SAAMI standard pressure measuring equipment, as is the case for Hodgdon and many of the loads in Lyman's manual, for example, that reference loads for the round were fired and nothing about the pressures or velocities produced has changed since 1992 or 1993 except for the addition of newer chamberings. No lawyers involved. Indeed, when I questioned Hodgdon about one of there results on time, they protested that they had the ballistic technicians signed data sheet on record confirming the results. So, that's their main line of legal defense: they conform to the SAAMI standard, and that, as I said, hasn't changed in over 20 years.

It is only where you have manuals (I'm thinking Sierra and Hornady here) in which all the load data was developed in commercial firearms and not in SAAMI pressure/velocity barrel guns, that you see reduced level loads (significantly below SAAMI standard maximums). Here, I believe, an extra margin of caution is being applied because they don't have the signed sheets showing they comply with the SAAMI standard. Also, they are presumably reading brass and primers for pressure, and as Denton Bramwell showed, two brass cases from the same lot with the same load history can disagree about pressure by almost 50%. So this is a situation where the lawyer's may have made a recommendation, or the company just decided on its own that the loads were where they were comfortable with them, with the idea of avoiding being sued somewhere in mind.

There is also the odd case of Speer's manual. Like Sierra and Hornady, they develop the loads in standard firearms, but they then send the maximum loads to Alliant for subsequent pressure testing to confirm they don't exceed SAAMI maximum. That's their legal defense. The starting and middle load pressures in the Speer manual appear to be estimates based on the maximum rather than actual measurements. But the final effect is that Speer has a few loads that are warmer than Sierra or Hornady.

A case where maybe the lawyers maybe should have been involved:

Here's a funny exception to the lowering of charges for you. Check out Western's load data for 223 Remington and 5.56×45 NATO. The powder charges are heavier for the latter. That should not be.

If you take a 5.56×45 U.S. Military reference load and measure it in a conformal piezo transducer (mil standard SCATP 5.56), it measures 55,000 psi. This is the standard the U.S. military produces 5.56 NATO cartridges to; a measured 55,000 psi. If you put that same exact lot of reference ammunition into a NATO channel piezo transducer (EVPAT standard) it measures 4300 bar (62,366 psi). Same round. Same absolute pressure. All the difference in the measured values is due to differences in the measuring systems used, and is not due to an actual difference in absolute pressure.

Well, Western's Ramshot and Accurate load data list 223 Remington and 5.56×45 NATO separately, and loads the latter to the 62,366 psi limit using a conformal piezo transducer. That is obvious from the higher charge weights listed for 5.56×45, but I also have that from the horse's mouth. I spoke with one of their technicians about this error and he confirmed the conformal transducer is what they used for both 223 Remington and 5.56×45 load development. Not valid, which he didn't know. So all that data they list for 5.56×45 is 13% above the pressure either NATO or the US military actually load 5.56 NATO ammunition to. If it measures 62,366 on a conformal piezo transducer, it would like register about 70,700 psi on a NATO channel transducer.

That is still below the proof load range (starts at 69,500 psi by conformal transducer), and it's something many bolt guns will handle just fine because the same actions and barrel diameters also handle the wider .308's. But its enough higher than standard that increased throat erosion rates can be expected and I would not want to use those loads in the AR and Mini14 gas systems because of the extra wear and tear.
 
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Clark,

Thanks for the reference.

If I look at my 1982 Lyman Handbook, none of the 357 loads are over 42,000 CUP, which is well within the SAAMI standard today. The 1981 NRA book, HANDLOADING, refers to 357 Mag rifle cartridges averaging 46,000 CUP, which is the only written reference I could find without a lot of digging that mentions running over the current 45,000 CUP standard. For pistol, though, that book drops back to 45,000 CUP saying Thompson Center and DuPont "agreed" to observe that limit. That makes me wonder what SAAMI had out there at the time that anyone would have to "agree" to anything.

I picked up my Hornady 2nd Ed. Handbook (1973) and my Hornady 7th edition and looked at 357 Mag. It was inconclusive. The only powder listed in both manuals is 2400. At 110 grains the maximum loads are, for all intents and purposes, the same (18.7 grains in the older book and 18.8 in the newer one). For the 125 grain JHP I got a surprise. The old book maxed out at 14.7 grains while the newer one maxed out at 16.9 grains. For 158 grain bullets the roles reverse a little, with the old book having 14.8 grains maximum and the new one running 14.3 grains maximum. The old book developed the loads in an 8" model 27 using Western brass and Alcan primers. The new book used an 8" Python loading Frontier cases and WSPM primers. The 110 grain bullet maximum velocity is 1500 fps in both manuals, the 125 is running 1300 fps in the old book and 1400 fps in the new. The 158's run 1200 fps in both books. So it doesn't seem like the 2400 changed in any very significant way between the publication years, based on those velocities. No more, anyway, than the case, primer, and bullet designs have changed in that time frame.

I'm expecting, assuming Mr. Bercovitz is correct, that the main reason pressures got lower, was from using WC296 or other newer powders that provide the same velocities as 2400, but at lower peak pressures. If anybody has copies of old SAAMI standards, please let us know what they say.
 
Mike Irwin
Staff

Join Date: April 14, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,813

Well, it's obvious that you don't need a .44 Magnum.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mike, it's not a matter of wanting .44 mag performance from a .357.

It's a matter of wanting the best performance that your .357 will give you [within SAAMI specs] with the latest technology in components.

As an example, SAAMI specs out the .40 S&W at 35 KPSI. Hodgdon's manual gives an absolute max load with Longshot at 32KPSI.

I know that I can get higher velocity with a 10mm. That's not the point. The point is that if SAAMI says 35 KPSI, the factories load to that, so why shouldn't we???:confused:

I completely agree with you that no one should go past the limit. That's only common sense.

But I intensely dislike being told by Hodgdon (or the others) that a load substantially lower than SAAMI spec is MAX, just because the corporate attorneys think "extra safety margins" will look good in court
 
"But I intensely dislike being told by Hodgdon (or the others) that a load substantially lower than SAAMI spec is MAX, just because the corporate attorneys think "extra safety margins" will look good in court"

Well, given the current "I wrecked my car because I was drunk, I need to sue everyone!" I really don't blame the corporations at all for protecting themselves from idiots, asshats, 'tards, and generally people who think their stupidity entitles them to hit the lawsuit lottery.

If you're interested in something else, invest in a ballistics laboratory set up and go to town.
 
Unclenick.

Since you used the .357 as an example, I'll give you some data I gathered.

Way back when, I switched from 4227 to H110/296.

Measured velocity from my Oehler chronograph increased over 150 FPS, and case life increased.

My duity weapon at the time was a Ruger Security Six, with 6 inch barrel. We were issued "new" Federal ammo. 125 grain JHP. chronograph results ferom my 6 incher were averaging 1610 FPS. My handloads with H110 made that velocity easily, but over the book max. However, my brass lasted 2-3 loadings longer than it had with the old 1450 FPS loads with 4227.

For those of us who do not have access to pressure guns, it has been my beliuef that case life is one of the best indicators of overpressure.

When I can load a 357 OR 44 mag case 6-8 times with my max load and still see no "classic"' pressure signs, I consider that load safe.
 
But I intensely dislike being told by Hodgdon (or the others) that a load substantially lower than SAAMI spec is MAX,...

Without knowing WHY Hodgdon stopped and called a certain 32K load max (when SAAMI allows 35K), its kind of a moot point.

Remember the SAAMI specs are intended to be maximum safe working loads in ALL guns. In general they are, but they cannot be absolutes, because guns and load components vary so much.

Load developers stop when they get unacceptable performance. It may, or may not the be max safe pressure that causes them to determine a load is unsuitable. No matter the reason, the stopping point will be listed as "max". Its nice when they explain, but they aren't compelled to do so.

You might ask them why...
 
I agree with that. If Hodgdon saw wild pressure spikes specifically with Longshot in that role at points beyond 32k PSI, Hodgdon will not publish a higher load. In fact, -many- purveyors of published load data will give you a max load and don't do you the courtesy of listing the pressure they found, so you wouldn't even KNOW it was "only" 32k PSI.

You must also admit or understand that the listed load showed 32k PSI for them as they tested it -- gotta know that it is simply not possible for every handloader to replicate exactly 32k PSI simply by using the same components. Different production lots of powder, primers, different case capacitoes of brass, different bore dimensions, different ambient temperatures, etc.
 
As a comment, back in 1953, HP White and the NRA put out a series of handbooks on reloading. In handbook #6, they have a section on the 357 Magnum. There they state that the working pressure is 45,000 pounds (pg81) on pg 78 they provide pressure data for loads shot ina 8 3/8" Model 27.

What is interesting is the at a 161 grn Ideal-keith 358431 bullet with an above many book max load of 15 grns of 2400 only develops 32,700 PSI and does 1556 FPS. 16.0 grns of 2400 with a 153 grn lHP hit 34,000 psi and does 1617 fps.

Commercial 158 grn loads (not specified whose) did 43,160 PSI and 1664 FPS.

So, how did we get form commercial loads doing 1664 fps with 43,160 PSI in 1953 down to 1300 FPS (winchester 158 JHP) out of my 1955 Pre-27 8 3/8" today?

If it wasn't the lawyers (all the time) and if it wasn't the SAAMI downgrading things, and if it wasn't that we did not have real pressure data back then, how did we get from there to here?

My personal take is that a little of all three issues occurred slowly over time, and in the days before cheap chrono's no one was the wiser.

By the way, my beloved 38/44's were run though the same system and out of a 6" S&W, a 161 grn LSWC with 13.5 grns of 2400 did 1220 fps at 19.660 PSI and a 155 grn LSWC with 12.5 of 2400 did 1263 with 21, 540 FPS. Even the lowly 38 special standard commercial load for 158 lead did 864 FPS with only 13,460 PSI.


My path forward on all of this is to set up my own little ballistics lab when I retire and write a book about it. Wiseman Ballistics up in College Station is where I am going to get my stuff. Last time I checked with him on it, he figured I could get set up to do 38 Special, 38/44 and 357 Magnum for a non-trivial amount of money but worth it to me.

http://www.wisemanballistics.com/


Think about the fun you could have with such a system actually pressure testing with real hardware various loads and commercial ammo? I think it would be absolutely fascinating and well worth the setup.
 
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