Are there better guns? Define better. If you're talking more power for the same size, the Kel-Tec P11 and the Kahr are good choices. However, I have an American Walther PPK in .380 (I prefer the PPK over the PPK/s because it is easier to carry in an ankle holster), and I love it. Mine is accurate, reliable, has never cut my hand, and I'm perfectly comfortable with a .380 under most circumstances (if I'm going to some area where I have particular concerns, I'll carry something bigger). Most importantly, it is very comfortable in a Desantis ankle holster, I can carry with a round chambered and the safety on, and I can keep an extra clip nearby.
Walther PPK/S: Top Gun or Too Tiny For CCW?
- Thread starter Elfuego Baca
- Start date
trapshooter
Moderator
Improving the Walther .380...
One thing I did to mine was lose the black plastic grips and get a very nice set of wood grips from Eagle Grips. I didn't get anything fancy, and they had what I wanted in stock, so I got them quick. Perfect fit. Yeeehah!
One thing I did to mine was lose the black plastic grips and get a very nice set of wood grips from Eagle Grips. I didn't get anything fancy, and they had what I wanted in stock, so I got them quick. Perfect fit. Yeeehah!
trapshooter
Moderator
That's true!
There's not a safer CCW pistol around than the PPK for an average 115# female, IMO. About the worst that could happen from the PPK itself is that she'd drop it on her foot. As for BGs, they'd die laughing as she either (1) struggled to get it into battery or (2) asked one of them to help her rack, cock, or pull the DA trigger to shoot them!
It's also very safe in a BG confrontation because they're not likely to know much about PPKs and they'd never figure that she couldn't operate it, so they'd be deterred without a shot ever being fired!
That kind of safety I didn't and don't need. I prefer that she have a nice trigger on a DAO pistol that will actually cause the gun to fire when she pulls the trigger. And one that she can rack the slide on if necessary. And one that she doesn't have to worry about the safety because it doesn't need one being a striker fired action. All those preferences are available across the range of calibers from .32 ACP to 9mm Luger (plus .40 S&W and even .45 ACP) in pistols that are smaller and lighter than the PPK.
Give the PPK its rightful place in the history books or a collector's safe. There are better choices today for the purpose intended.
I'm not trying to br argumentative, but if you are going to carry a firearm then you should be comfortable and practiced with all of the controls.
Different guns are for different purposes and each may have their own unique features. A gun that goes bang when you pull the trigger may be simplistic but is it safe enough for daily carry for folks that are more likely to get hit by lightning that need to pull a gun.
After much research I bought my PPK as my first pistol based on it's safe carrying ability. I was a newbie and wanted a safety with a double action first shot. I practiced well and learned how to handle it. I now have Glocks and an H&K P7. I practice with them all and carry them based on where I'm going.
Just my thoughts of course.
Different guns are for different purposes and each may have their own unique features. A gun that goes bang when you pull the trigger may be simplistic but is it safe enough for daily carry for folks that are more likely to get hit by lightning that need to pull a gun.
After much research I bought my PPK as my first pistol based on it's safe carrying ability. I was a newbie and wanted a safety with a double action first shot. I practiced well and learned how to handle it. I now have Glocks and an H&K P7. I practice with them all and carry them based on where I'm going.
Just my thoughts of course.
Absolutely!
A safety AND a DA first shot is two safeties. In a surprise social encounter with a BG that requires a quick presentation and first shot, you're dead. A DA trigger IS a safety even though Glocks are on the edge of that -- their trigger pull is so light and short that if carried without a trigger protecting holster I'd hesitate to say it's a safe carry. If the DA trigger is heavy enough to require having a firing grip on the pistol to pull the trigger, I'd call it a safety.
Being proficient and comfortable with a DA pistol and yet wanting a safety seems a little like Lance Armstrong using training wheels. You either are or you are not proficient and comfortable. If you're not, don't carry the pistol. You might waste time drawing and fiddling with it when you could be evading, seeking cover, deceiving your attacker, otherwise defusing the situation, or all of the preceding. If an armed attacker sees you going for what could be a gun, you've just provoked him to shoot. You'd better be quick!
Elfuego Baca
Inactive
Wow!
I appreciate all the information you guys have given me here!
Thanks to all for helping me out here on which pistol to choose for CCW, you guys are great!
Thanks-- Elfuego Baca
I appreciate all the information you guys have given me here!
Thanks to all for helping me out here on which pistol to choose for CCW, you guys are great!
Thanks-- Elfuego Baca
"A safety AND a DA first shot is two safeties. In a surprise social encounter with a BG that requires a quick presentation and first shot, you're dead. "
As a PPK (clone) owner I'll have to agree with Blackhawk's first statement, and disagree with his second statement. Yes, the heavy DA trigger pull of a PPK is like a 2nd safety. The PPK's and derivatives (including Makarovs) which I have handled/shot all have a pretty stiff DA trigger pull. And a pretty nice SA trigger pull.
However, I don't think the safety poses any time penalty. With practice, it becomes 2nd nature to flick the safety off as the weapon is drawn. Its not a separate action, its a part of the draw--just like a 1911. With reasonable practice, you should be able to get a PPK out of the holster, on target, and first round downrange just as fast as you could in a SA semi like a 1911 or a DAO semi like a Glock.
I'm a fan of the manual of arms for the PPK. You can insert a mag, rack the slide with the safety on (and the pistol pointed in a safe direction), and holster the weapon. You now have a hammer down (and blocked from the firing pin) and a safety on. I consider is safer than either the SA or the DAO.
With an SA, if the safety is accidentally swiped off, a relativley light force on the trigger will cause a discharge. With a DAO, a relatively heavy force on the trigger will cause a discharge (under any circumstance). With a PPK-type, it requires both an accidental application of the safety and a fairly heavy force on the trigger before a discharge can occur.
(Disclaimer: yes, safety is between the ears all all types should be equally safe when carried properly. I am referring to mechanical differences and potential user error).
And again, I do not believe there is a time penalty in a serious situation, provided the user has practiced the draw/safety/discharge process properly.
As a PPK (clone) owner I'll have to agree with Blackhawk's first statement, and disagree with his second statement. Yes, the heavy DA trigger pull of a PPK is like a 2nd safety. The PPK's and derivatives (including Makarovs) which I have handled/shot all have a pretty stiff DA trigger pull. And a pretty nice SA trigger pull.
However, I don't think the safety poses any time penalty. With practice, it becomes 2nd nature to flick the safety off as the weapon is drawn. Its not a separate action, its a part of the draw--just like a 1911. With reasonable practice, you should be able to get a PPK out of the holster, on target, and first round downrange just as fast as you could in a SA semi like a 1911 or a DAO semi like a Glock.
I'm a fan of the manual of arms for the PPK. You can insert a mag, rack the slide with the safety on (and the pistol pointed in a safe direction), and holster the weapon. You now have a hammer down (and blocked from the firing pin) and a safety on. I consider is safer than either the SA or the DAO.
With an SA, if the safety is accidentally swiped off, a relativley light force on the trigger will cause a discharge. With a DAO, a relatively heavy force on the trigger will cause a discharge (under any circumstance). With a PPK-type, it requires both an accidental application of the safety and a fairly heavy force on the trigger before a discharge can occur.
(Disclaimer: yes, safety is between the ears all all types should be equally safe when carried properly. I am referring to mechanical differences and potential user error).
And again, I do not believe there is a time penalty in a serious situation, provided the user has practiced the draw/safety/discharge process properly.
Dave,
There must be somebody who's had an AD with a DAO compact other than a Glock, but I don't recall reading or hearing about them.
Even the PPK can be made safer by replacing the cartridges with snap caps, filing 1/4" off the business end of the firing pin, and plugging the barrel. ;-) The question is, however, what is reasonable, effective, and utilititarian "safe" for a CCW?
Don't get me wrong. I don't think any DA/SA pistol should be carried chambered and cocked without a manual safety engaged.
Human factors engineering refutes your belief that "there is a time penalty in a serious situation, provided the user has practiced the draw/safety/discharge process properly" on two counts. First, the "serious situation" isn't something you can effectively practice for, so the more complex the movements the greater the liklihood of messing up becomes.
Second, to draw and fire DAO is a single fluid movement with all the muscles of the hand progressively going in one direction to grab, grip, and pull the trigger. The PPK DA plus safety requires grab, push (thumb in the opposite direction), grip, and pull the trigger.
If somebody can draw and fire the PPK your way in .5 second, they can do it without the safety in much less time. There's just no way around that!
If the PPK had a reasonable DA trigger pull of about half of what it is (say 7-9# instead of 19+#), you'd even have a decent chance of hitting your target. In a serious situation with the PPK, your second shot is likely to be screwed up by your overcompensating for the first one! That you can fix -- by adding yet another step to your draw and fire drill. It would be grab, push (thumb in opposite direction), cock (thumb in different plane and direction), grip, and pull the trigger.
If stuck with a PPK as a CCW, that's how I'd practice. I'd have a better chance of getting the first shot on target, and there wouldn't be any difference on how the pistol operated for subsequent shots.
However, by putting the PPK into somebody else's eager hands, I won't be faced with that. I'll stick to my finely tuned and 100% reliable P11, which has zero configuration or force problems and more rounds of a more potent cartridge. I also won't be faced with the possibility of my bride being unable to defend herself because she just couldn't operate the thing in a HD situation....
There must be somebody who's had an AD with a DAO compact other than a Glock, but I don't recall reading or hearing about them.
Even the PPK can be made safer by replacing the cartridges with snap caps, filing 1/4" off the business end of the firing pin, and plugging the barrel. ;-) The question is, however, what is reasonable, effective, and utilititarian "safe" for a CCW?
Don't get me wrong. I don't think any DA/SA pistol should be carried chambered and cocked without a manual safety engaged.
Human factors engineering refutes your belief that "there is a time penalty in a serious situation, provided the user has practiced the draw/safety/discharge process properly" on two counts. First, the "serious situation" isn't something you can effectively practice for, so the more complex the movements the greater the liklihood of messing up becomes.
Second, to draw and fire DAO is a single fluid movement with all the muscles of the hand progressively going in one direction to grab, grip, and pull the trigger. The PPK DA plus safety requires grab, push (thumb in the opposite direction), grip, and pull the trigger.
If somebody can draw and fire the PPK your way in .5 second, they can do it without the safety in much less time. There's just no way around that!
If the PPK had a reasonable DA trigger pull of about half of what it is (say 7-9# instead of 19+#), you'd even have a decent chance of hitting your target. In a serious situation with the PPK, your second shot is likely to be screwed up by your overcompensating for the first one! That you can fix -- by adding yet another step to your draw and fire drill. It would be grab, push (thumb in opposite direction), cock (thumb in different plane and direction), grip, and pull the trigger.
If stuck with a PPK as a CCW, that's how I'd practice. I'd have a better chance of getting the first shot on target, and there wouldn't be any difference on how the pistol operated for subsequent shots.
However, by putting the PPK into somebody else's eager hands, I won't be faced with that. I'll stick to my finely tuned and 100% reliable P11, which has zero configuration or force problems and more rounds of a more potent cartridge. I also won't be faced with the possibility of my bride being unable to defend herself because she just couldn't operate the thing in a HD situation....
mapper1965
Inactive
PPK Comments
I have a PPK .380 and I love it. I do have to say that you may want to find somewhere that you can shoot one before buying it. I originally bought mine just because I wanted one. After I put my first 200 rounds through it I wiped the blood off of it, put a band-aid on my hand and then cleaned and re-oiled it. The beaver tail hits my hand in a perfect spot to put a nice cut on the side of my thumb knuckle. If I'm going to practice with it for a long period of time, it can be a little painful. I know that some people never have this problem but you will notice many web sites referring to this as the "Walther Bite". The slide clears my hand without a problem but the recoil tapping my thumb knuckle closest to my wrist after 20 or 30 shots starts to break the skin. If you were going to use this in a defensive situation and have to fire 6 or 7 shots, breaking of skin will be the last thing on your mind. I feel that this is a very safe gun and it’s easy to conceal. There are many small guns out there and this gun isn’t for everyone. A gun is like anything else...it's all personal preference. Find a good gun range where you can try a few different types or find a friend that already had something that they like and try theirs. Regards
I have a PPK .380 and I love it. I do have to say that you may want to find somewhere that you can shoot one before buying it. I originally bought mine just because I wanted one. After I put my first 200 rounds through it I wiped the blood off of it, put a band-aid on my hand and then cleaned and re-oiled it. The beaver tail hits my hand in a perfect spot to put a nice cut on the side of my thumb knuckle. If I'm going to practice with it for a long period of time, it can be a little painful. I know that some people never have this problem but you will notice many web sites referring to this as the "Walther Bite". The slide clears my hand without a problem but the recoil tapping my thumb knuckle closest to my wrist after 20 or 30 shots starts to break the skin. If you were going to use this in a defensive situation and have to fire 6 or 7 shots, breaking of skin will be the last thing on your mind. I feel that this is a very safe gun and it’s easy to conceal. There are many small guns out there and this gun isn’t for everyone. A gun is like anything else...it's all personal preference. Find a good gun range where you can try a few different types or find a friend that already had something that they like and try theirs. Regards