Walther P5

Mike P. Wagner

New member
I saw an interesting review of this gun in Gun Tests. I don't know anything about them. From the photo in the story, it doesn't look like a tilting barrel action- the slide is back, and the barrel is still parallel to the frame. I found an exploded drawing somewhere, and it looks like the barrel has three sets of lugs. The Gun Tests article didn't find the P5 to be very accurate, which surprised me after the commented about the engineering.

Why aren't they more popular in the States?

The big question: How do I search threads for "Walther P5"? The search engine keeps rejecting "P5" as too short. I tried "Walther AND P5", and quote Walther P5 unquote, but nothing seems to work.

Thanks,


Mike P. Wagner
 
Search with these arguments: +walther +p5*

Should find lots of hits.

P5 is not popular I believe because of high cost ($800 and up, if you missed the clearing out of them a couple of years ago for $499), mediocre accuracy (from what I've seen, no firsthand experience), and size inefficiency (8 shot in a wide chunk of steel).

I dunno, if I could find a P5C for $500-$600 I might buy it. But, I'm not inclined to buy one for much more than that.

James
 
My P5 has been spot on in terms of accuracy. 8 rounds is plenty.
You can slap in another magazine if the need arises. Worth every penny and more. IMHO!
 
Mine is plenty accurate--I would say as accurate as any 9mm I have ever shot and far more accurate than any Glock I have shot. I think what killed the P5 is the high cost. I like the single stack.
 
The P 5 was built according to the requirements of the german police. They only want 9 rounds, that is why the Sig Sauer P220 was chopped down into the 225.

There were two other autos chosen at that time by different states, the P225 and the H&K PSP.

The P5 was the favorite of most officers that tested them, they found them the easiest to qualify with.
They are as accurate as somebody can shoot.

They are probably not seeing widespread distribution as they are no "wondernine", no hi-cap 9mm, and were high priced. Same sad fate as the P88.
 
Here is a run down on the Walther P5 based on my research and my actual experience with the weapon.

1. In some respects an improvement over the P38. Walther did away with the troublesome P38 stamped sheet metal top cover that often blew off during firing. This has happened to every P38 I have ever owned.

2. Walther made the P5 with a heavy duty enclosed slide. The P38 pistols were noted for cracked slides because of the defective design of the open top slide. Open top slides such as found on the Walther P38 and Beretta 92 have very little metal in the side rails and when they crack they can also fail catastrophically throwing metal back into the shooters face.

3. The Walther p5, P38 and Berretta also have an outside trigger bar located on the side of the frame. If one takes a nasty fall and slams the pistol against something these bars can break off or move forward and they will fire the pistol without you even touching the trigger if the gun is in the full cock mode. """ The Beretta is so bad that you can actually fire the gun off by merely using your finger to push the bar forward. """""" The Walthers are much more diffcult to set off because of their very flat trigger bars.

4. The P5 accuracy is a little better than the P38 because of the forward barrel lug that helps stabalzie the barrel.

5. The p5's trigger is definetly a lot worse than a commercial P38. It has a tilting firing pin that results in a very creapy pull. The firing pin tilts because when it is in the tilted positon it is locked into the slide so that the firing pin cannot hit the primer of the loaded round in the chamber if the gun is dropped.

6. The gun is low capacity but this can be a plus if you have short fingers or small hands. The grips fit most people quite comfortably.

7. Because of its aluminum frame the gun is top heavy but in all fairness it balances much better than most of the tupperware pistols I have shot. Its balance and pointability are not great but not bad either.

7 A. The P5 has a hexagonnal pin in the frame to prevent the locking block from eating away the alumim frame when it slames against it when firing the pistol. In other words the locking block slams into the steel pin not the soft aluminum frame as on the p38 commercial and p1 pistols.

8. Because of its heavy weight enclosed slide the aluminum frame of the gun does not start to immedietly self-destruct like in the light weight open top slide and aluminum frame P1's and P38's. I give you this statement from actual experience in usings these weapons and examining them for frame wear after firing as little as 500 rounds out of aluminum frame p1's and commercial P38's. I have seen no appreciable wear so far on my P5 after about 1,200 rounds of ammo ,some of it being very hot. Not so in the P1's and P38 aluminum frame guns I own. I have found extreme gauling and frame rail wear after firing only 500 rounds of ammo through them.

9. The barrel of the P5 has a fantastic throat job and will work with most hollow point ammo.

10. The p5 has a good set of extremely wide combat sights and the rear sight is windage adjustable via a screw.

IN conculsion I will say the P5 was definetly an improvement over the P38 and all of its vices and it is a well made gun by a prestigious maker and it is very expensive. Most people that own them like them and they shoot every bit as good as some of the tupperware pistols like the Glock. The gun has a vey wide slide because of its P38 type locking block but it can still be worn concealed although not as concealable as the browning type weapons that have a much thinner profile in regards to the slide configuration.

Hope this info helps . I did not hold anything back or sugar coat anything about the pistol. I gave you my actual shooting experience with them, not myth, not urban legend, and not love poems dedicated to them.W.R.
 
Wild Romanian

Walther made the P5 with a heavy duty enclosed slide. The P38 pistols were noted for cracked slides because of the defective design of the open top slide. Open top slides such as found on the Walther P38 and Beretta 92 have very little metal in the side rails and when they crack they can also fail catastrophically throwing metal back into the shooters face.

Please document at least a handful of those "cracked slide" catastrophic failures on P38 or P1 pistols. I served four years with the German Army, which issued tens of thousands of P1 pistols with the "weak aluminum frame". Never seen one with a cracked slide, not once. Open-topped slides are not "defective designs", no matter how big the chip on your shoulder regarding the P38 and Beretta 92 designs. Germany has issued that pistol for 60+ years, and I've never heard of anyone getting a slide into their face...not in 4 years of service, and not with several Wehrmacht veterans in the family.

In some respects an improvement over the P38. Walther did away with the troublesome P38 stamped sheet metal top cover that often blew off during firing. This has happened to every P38 I have ever owned.

So let me get this straight: You think the open-topped slide is "defective", all the covers on all the P38s you've owned have "blown off", and you've owned more than one? Why the repeat purchases of such a sucky design?

The Walther p5, P38 and Berretta also have an outside trigger bar located on the side of the frame. If one takes a nasty fall and slams the pistol against something these bars can break off or move forward and they will fire the pistol without you even touching the trigger if the gun is in the full cock mode. """ The Beretta is so bad that you can actually fire the gun off by merely using your finger to push the bar forward. """""" The Walthers are much more diffcult to set off because of their very flat trigger bars.

That is complete and utter fiction. The P38/P1 series has a firing pin safety, as does the Beretta 92 series. You can pound the transfer bar with a hammer, and the chambered round won't go off. What you describe is technically and physically impossible, but I'd love to see you produce at least one documented incident to prove me wrong. You're thinking of the Japanese Type 94 "Shiki Kenju" service pistol which could, indeed, be fired in such a manner.

The p5's trigger is definetly a lot worse than a commercial P38. It has a tilting firing pin that results in a very creapy pull. The firing pin tilts because when it is in the tilted positon it is locked into the slide so that the firing pin cannot hit the primer of the loaded round in the chamber if the gun is dropped.

Please describe how the shape, size, composition or position of the firing pin has any effect on the trigger pull of a DA/SA autoloader.

The P38, commercial or military, has always had a reputation for horrible DA trigger pull. Back then, people didn't know it was horrible since the P38 was the first DA pistol, and there was no other trigger pull to compare it to.

Because of its heavy weight enclosed slide the aluminum frame of the gun does not start to immedietly self-destruct like in the light weight open top slide and aluminum frame P1's and P38's. I give you this statement from actual experience in usings these weapons and examining them for frame wear after firing as little as 500 rounds out of aluminum frame p1's and commercial P38's. I have seen no appreciable wear so far on my P5 after about 1,200 rounds of ammo ,some of it being very hot. Not so in the P1's and P38 aluminum frame guns I own. I have found extreme gauling and frame rail wear after firing only 500 rounds of ammo through them.

Funny, I've seen hundreds of P1 pistols in the service...most had normal wear from usage, and none of them had "gouged frames". Also, wouldn't more slide mass accelerate the wear on the slide rails, if any? Again, you state that you own multiple examples of the "self-destructing aluminum frame" P1s and P38s. You either have enough money to waste on guns that you know to be crap, or you're a slow learner.

From your vague and often grossly incorrect op-ed pieces about what seems to be every firearm ever made since Beretta started business back when cavalry still wore armor, I must surmise that most of your encounters with these weapons were on the pages of GunWorld and Soldier of Fiction. You've been asked many times to back up your assertions with evidence, and you should start to realize that many of the knowledgeable folks on this board actually have experience with the weapons you describe in such entertaining terms.
 
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Please describe how the shape, size, composition or position of the firing pin has any effect on the trigger pull of a DA/SA autoloader.
Lendringser,
I think I can answer that. Take a look at the inclosed attachment. It is from the P5 manual that covers the action of what the firing pin does during the trigger pull cycle. This is why the pull of a P5 is so heavy!!!

BTW, I have a P5, and with deference to our expert on every pistol made, or ever will be made, this is indeed a "love poem" to the P5. It has taken quite some getting used to, but I am used to the trigger now.

As a quick test of how the steel that comprises your slide is, take the slide, hold it between your index finger, and your thumb, and "plink" it with your other finger nail. You should get a ringing much like a bell. I did that to my P5 slide, and got the clearest tone I have ever heard. Not unlike a tuning fork. So Mr WR, I don't think I have one of your "defective" ill designed slides. I think I shall keep my lovely P5!!! :p
 

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The Walther p5, P38 and Berretta also have an outside trigger bar located on the side of the frame. If one takes a nasty fall and slams the pistol against something these bars can break off or move forward and they will fire the pistol without you even touching the trigger if the gun is in the full cock mode. """ The Beretta is so bad that you can actually fire the gun off by merely using your finger to push the bar forward. """""" The Walthers are much more diffcult to set off because of their very flat trigger bars.
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"That is complete and utter fiction. The P38/P1 series has a firing pin safety, as does the Beretta 92 series. You can pound the transfer bar with a hammer, and the chambered round won't go off. What you describe is technically and physically impossible, but I'd love to see you produce at least one documented incident to prove me wrong. You're thinking of the Japanese Type 94 "Shiki Kenju" service pistol which could, indeed, be fired in such a manner."


The action bar does move the firing pin into the firing position when it (the action bar) is moved forward and will release the hammer. WR is partially correct in that if the action bar is somehow moved forward (even without the use of the trigger), the gun will go off now matter if the hammer is at rest or cocked. If the hammer is cocked and the action bar is broken apart, though, the gun will not go off as the firing pin will still be in the resting position and that safety will function as normal.

I find it hard to believe, however, that the action bar can be externally manipulated in such a manner to easily fire unintentionally without the shooter's notice (if dealing with a hand to hand combat situation). The area of the action bar that is needed to move it forward externally is extremely small. You would have to really work on it to get it to fire. To have a corner of a counter or a small extended protrusion to catch the action bar and move it forward when the shooter is falling seems to me to be so remote to not even be worth considering. IMO, the potential of the shooter NDing with their finger on the trigger when falling is more of a concern.

I have heard, but not seen and have tried but failed, that the external action bars of Berettas and Taurusses (sp) can be pinned down by external pressure to prevent them from shooting. A very high amount of pressure, however, is needed to keep the bar from going forward when the trigger is squeezed. More pressure than I am able to apply without putting the gun down on a solid surface. Getting the action to move forward to release the hammer requires deliberate attention.
 
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Funny, I've seen hundreds of P1 pistols in the service...most had normal wear from usage, and none of them had "gouged frames". Also, wouldn't more slide mass accelerate the wear on the slide rails, if any? Again, you state that you own multiple examples of the "self-destructing aluminum frame" P1s and P38s. You either have enough money to waste on guns that you know to be crap, or you're a slow learner

First: of all I have bought and sold some of the very first P1's ever imported into the U.S. None of them had been fired very much at all. I would say probably less than 50 or 100 rounds judging from the wear on the cheap alumimum frame. After firing these weapons some of which I had sold to close friends of mine the serious wear started after only 400 to 500 rounds.

Sencond: If you had any real experience with this weapon you would understand that the open top slide is extremely light in weight and coupling this with the underpowered dual recoil springs results in tremendous rearward slide velocity that devestates the cheap aluminum frame in very short order.

I think the person who reads all the gun magazines happens to be you not me. I am relating actual real life test results. If you cannot see all this wear on an aluminum P38 frame then you are either totally blind or unwilling to share the truth with our readers.

For those of you out there who wonder who is telling the truth then I suggest you spend your hard earned money and see for yourself or examine a pistol from a friend that you know has shot more than just one box of ammo out of one of these turkeys. W.R.
 
"That is complete and utter fiction. The P38/P1 series has a firing pin safety, as does the Beretta 92 series. You can pound the transfer bar with a hammer, and the chambered round won't go off. What you describe is technically and physically impossible,

You obviously have very little experience with weapons.

I personally droped a beretta 9mm with the safety on and as you know this pistol also has an inertia firing pin. With two safety systems both preventing the firing pin from moving (If they are working) it would be impossible for the gun to fire, now would it not? WELL MR. EXPERT THE GUN FIRED ANYWAY.

Mechanical weapons are just that, mechanical, and they can fail no matter how may safety sytems that you install on them.

Tragically I proved this the hard way. W.R.
 
The action bar does move the firing pin into the firing position when it (the action

The action bar does move the firing pin into the firing position when it (the action bar) is moved forward and will release the hammer. WR is partially correct in that if the action bar is somehow moved forward (even without the use of the trigger), the gun will go off now matter if the hammer is at rest or cocked. If the hammer is cocked and the action bar is broken apart, though, the gun will not go off as the firing pin will still be in the resting position and that safety will function as normal.

I really think you are missing the whole point here. First you partially agree with me about the gun firing and then you search for other instances where the gun will not fire. Ok Lets agree with everything you have just stated.Let us review what the main premis of my statemene about the weapon was. It has design defects. You just stated this yourself. . W.R.
 
As a quick test of how the steel that comprises your slide is, take the slide, hold it between your index finger, and your thumb, and "plink" it with your other finger nail. You should get a ringing much like a bell. I did that to my P5 slide, and got the clearest tone I have ever heard. Not unlike a tuning fork. So Mr WR, I don't think I have one of your "defective" ill designed slides. I think I shall keep my lovely P5

You were not very attentive when you read my post. If you go back and read it you will see that I was speaking of the P38 slide and the Beretta slide not the P5 slide. As a matter of fact I said just the opposite about the P5 slide. You are so quick to criticise me that you did not even realize I was prasing the slide of the P5.
 
[
Please document at least a handful of those "cracked slide" catastrophic failures on P38 or P1 pistols. I served four years with the German Army, which issued tens of thousands of P1 pistols with the "weak aluminum frame

First , History has already proven you wrong. Walther actually resdesigned the p1's slide. I once bought four of these pistols for resale all with very close serial numbers. Walther actually made an attempt to strengthen the slide by adding metal to the slide rails. This was very evident when examining the example that was one of the four pistols that I purchased for resale. ONe of the pistols had metal added to the slide rails or should I say it had less metal milled off when the slide was manufactured.

Why do you think that Walther went to the enclosed slide of the P5. They did it to cure the cracked slide problem of the P38 series of pistols. Endurance tests showed Walther the need for this design change.

Is it not ironic how history repeats itself. Walther had problems and attempted a quick fix of the weak open top slide and Beretta copied Walther's mistakes and now they too have strengthened the slide of the Beretta 92 series of weapons because their weapon also had problems with cracked slides.

I have like most people interested in P38's have also read quite a few collector books down through the years and in them I have seen pictures of cracked clear through P38 slides.

One does not have to be a mechanical genius to see how weak these slides (Beretta and Walther) are. It is visually quite aparant when comparing them to the more durable arched enclosed designs of the Walther P5 or other closed type slide designs. W.R.
 
I personally droped a beretta 9mm with the safety on and as you know this pistol also has an inertia firing pin. With two safety systems both preventing the firing pin from moving (If they are working) it would be impossible for the gun to fire, now would it not? WELL MR. EXPERT THE GUN FIRED ANYWAY.

If you dropped a loaded handgun intentionally to check for defects or prove a point, you ought to have your cranium examined for impact damage.

If you dropped it unintentionally, you ought to improve your gun handling and safety skills.

I am still interested in non-anecdotal evidence about self-destroying Walther frames or rupturing Beretta slides. If those weapons are such hazards, these incidents must be documented somewhere other than in "I personally..." or "A buddy of mine...." stories. If that happens all the time, surely you can present some factual and public evidence.

Also, I'd still like to know why you bought numerous examples of that faulty design yourself?

The German Army is the largest user of P38 and P1 pistols, both wartime and post-war production. I have never heard of an incident where either a frame "tore up" or a slide separated, and I was very much around them for four years. I also have German WWII vets in the family, all of which can not recall a single catastrophic failure with a P38.

Look: it's not a bad thing to dislike a design. I never claimed the P38/P1 design to be the most efficient or robust design on the planet, but these guns work, and they are not prone to failures of the kind you describe. The evidence is just not there, otherwise you could be posting reams of reports here, pictures and all. Calling a design you don't like "crappy" and insisting on defects unsupported by real-life experience or recorded facts does not lend you an air of authority on guns.

Feel free to prove me wrong about the P1, but use hard evidence instead of "My buddy once..." anecdotes.
 
WR,

There are, to me, two different situations you have provided concerning the action bar.

"If one takes a nasty fall and slams the pistol against something these bars can break off or move forward and they will fire the pistol without you even touching the trigger if the gun is in the full cock mode."

1: The action bar is moved forward in some way externally without the use of the trigger.

2: The action bar breaks.

[1] If the action bar is somehow externally moved forward for the entire length of its travel, the gun will go off.

[2] If the action bar breaks without moving forward (even with the hammer cocked), the firing pin will be in the down position (rest as I called it) out of the way of the hitting surface of the hammer when it falls. The firing pin is raised only when the final stroke of the trigger is made which cannot be done of the action bar breaks apart. The only ways I can think of for the gun to go off with a broken action bar is to have it fall with great force top side down so that the inertial of the firing pin will get it in line with the striking surface of the hammer at which point the action bar would break. Or, the shooter has his finger on the trigger taking up all of the SA slack when he falls and breaks the action bar.

In either case, IMO, the possibilities of these two events happening are, as I said, so remote they are not even worth the thought of considering. So remote even that I wouldn't call it a design defect.
 
WR,
I seem to remember having read where you blasted the P5 in another thread, but have it your way. I see there is no point arguing with one so knowledgeable about everything. So I will just have to take my life into my own hands, and continue to shoot my P1, 92FS, and P5. Troll on brother!!!

One thing we do have in common is the hatred for the 10mm Kurtz!!! :)
 
Look: it's not a bad thing to dislike a design. I never claimed the P38/P1 design to be the most efficient or robust design on the planet, but these guns work, and they are not prone to failures of the kind you describe. The evidence is just not there, otherwise you could be posting reams of reports here, pictures and all. Calling a design you don't like "crappy" and insisting on defects unsupported by real-life experience or recorded facts does not lend you an air of authority on guns

Walthers own design changes that are reflected in the P5 prove you 100 per cent wrong. The steel hexagonal pin through the frame and the heavier enclosed slide of the P5 pistol was Walthers answer to the problems they had with durability of the P1 with its Aluminimun frame. They also did away with the stamped sheet metal top cover. Any one who knows anything at all about Walther p38's will not argue that fact that they are well known for losing their top covers under recoil. I cannot believe that anyone would even attempt to argue the point about the top covers.

Lets face it the Walther P38 has had a long sorry history of serious problems both in functionality and safety (in regards to the defective first models safety system).

Anyone familiar with the history of this pistol cannot fail to ask himself the question. How in the hell did the pistol last in the maket place as long as it did. W.R.
 
2] If the action bar breaks without moving forward (even with the hammer cocked), the firing pin will be in the down position (rest as I called it) out of the way of the hitting surface of the hammer when it falls. The firing pin is raised only when the final stroke of the trigger is made which cannot be done of the action bar breaks apart. The only ways I can think of for the gun to go off with a broken action bar is to have it fall with great force top side down so that the inertial of the firing pin will get it in line with the striking surface of the hammer at which point the action bar would break. Or, the shooter has his finger on the trigger taking up all of the SA slack when he falls and breaks the action bar

YOu are speaking of the P5 not the P38 or Beretta. These are the two pistols that will fire as I described not the P5. I tried to compare the P5 to the P38 and Berettas. I was trying to show some of the reasons why Walther came out with the P5. It was to correct the design defects of the P38.

By the way the P5 will also fire if the action bar moves forward because of impact even if your finger is not on the trigger. I will say that the possiblity is slight because of the shape of the bar but it is still a possiblity and anything that can happen sooner or later will happen Murphyies law. W.R.
 
I seem to remember having read where you blasted the P5 in another thread, but have it your way. I see there is no point arguing with one so knowledgeable about everything. So I will just have to take my life into my own hands, and continue to shoot my P1, 92FS, and P5. Troll on brother!!!

It never ceases to amaze me that people tend to love their weapons so much that it blinds them to any of the weapons faults. No weapon is perfect and wishing it was perfect or being peronally affended because a machine does not work as expected just makes no sense to me personally.

I call it like I see it. I call it after I have tested it. It is an interesting hobby. But I do not live in the dream world of glassy eyed gun lovers who love every weapon they ever purchase and see no faults in any of thier obviously defect designs. W.R.
 
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