That was good stuff. I need to spend more time with this though. I bet barrel bands and step tapering were discontinued due to new info, or better barrel making, and better alloys. Some doctors early on used to suggest to patients to take up smoking to relieve anxiety. Maybe it worked, but with modern knowledge, they know this isn't the way to approach this problem at all. I am skeptical about the barrel doing the vibrating after the bullet has left the end of it. It is a fact that when I had my sporters fully receiver, and barrel bedded they shot better, tighter, and didn't need sighting in again.
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walking group
- Thread starter BB1
- Start date
I've bedded many rifles over the years and found a few like a forend pressure pad, but most shoot equally as well free-floated. Single stock-screw rifles like 10-22s shoot best with pressure pads in the forend, especially with bull barrels. If I were to fully bed a barrel in a stock, I'd put several pounds of upward pressure on it while the epoxy sets up.
There are several reasons for free-floating hunting rifles. Probably the best is that, with wood-stocked rifles, POI doesn't change with humidity. Another reason is that sling pressure or rest position doesn't affect barrel vibration.
People tend to put way too much emphasis on group size and not enough on POI consistency. The smart hunter would rather have a rifle that shoots 1 1/4 MOA, but never varies it's POI, than a .75 MOA rifle whose POI changes as much as 1.5 MOA depending on humidity, rest position, rest flexiblity, sling, etc.
There are several reasons for free-floating hunting rifles. Probably the best is that, with wood-stocked rifles, POI doesn't change with humidity. Another reason is that sling pressure or rest position doesn't affect barrel vibration.
People tend to put way too much emphasis on group size and not enough on POI consistency. The smart hunter would rather have a rifle that shoots 1 1/4 MOA, but never varies it's POI, than a .75 MOA rifle whose POI changes as much as 1.5 MOA depending on humidity, rest position, rest flexiblity, sling, etc.
coyota says:
Right. Better testing and ammo showed they hampered, not helped accuracy. Lots of match rifles use to have barrels banded or pressur fitted to stock fore ends. They quit in a few years.I bet barrel bands and step tapering were discontinued due to new info
Well, here is clip from a BR gunsmith and go to bottom and read how he build his rifles and they are glued in actions.
http://www.bordenrifles.com/benchrest.html the Hunter Br rifle is not glue in.
http://www.bordenrifles.com/benchrest.html the Hunter Br rifle is not glue in.
Old Roper, I think the benchresters started glueing in round receivers to stocks (after making a perfect mating surface by conventional epoxy bedding with a release agent) as soon as they learned heavier bullets torqued (while bullets wend down the barrel) the round receivers loose from conventional epoxy bedding. The 3 position match rifle folks started using sleeves on their Remington receivers in the 1960's for the same reason. That's when I first heard of benchresters doing it. And the barrels didn't touch anything except the receiver face; at least 1/16 to 1/8 inch clearance around it.
Gluing in flat side/bottom receivers isn't needed, but some do it anyway.
Gluing in flat side/bottom receivers isn't needed, but some do it anyway.
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Bart B. I only shot BR and all my actions were glued in on my light/heavy rifles.
As to what happened in the 60's not sure what your talking about unless you can name names and where matches were held as their are still some of the older BR shooter/gunsmith around.
In 1971 Ralph Stolle was making limited number of his Panda flat-bottom aluminum receiver. From my understanding 60's few custom action from Weber,Sherman,Hart and Shilen(made in New York) http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri117partial.pdf
I had few action that had been sleeved but not for what your talking about as mine never had recoil lug same with lot of BR actions that I used.
As to what happened in the 60's not sure what your talking about unless you can name names and where matches were held as their are still some of the older BR shooter/gunsmith around.
In 1971 Ralph Stolle was making limited number of his Panda flat-bottom aluminum receiver. From my understanding 60's few custom action from Weber,Sherman,Hart and Shilen(made in New York) http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri117partial.pdf
I had few action that had been sleeved but not for what your talking about as mine never had recoil lug same with lot of BR actions that I used.
Sweet Shooter
New member
Fascinating! One thing I have noticed is that when we bed with upward pressure most stock materials eventually take a "set" relieving the intended pressure over time. My SPS plastic stock did this noticeably. Groups opened up one weekend. I noticed the looseness right away. What to do? Well I tried a little experiment with Paracord. I left the leather pressure pad in the end of the stock under the barrel and wrapped—"whipped" the paracord as tight as I could to hold the stock to the fore-end of the stock. I'm pretty good with knots and my whipping is pretty tight and smart, I melted the ends leaving little tags so that the whipping doesn't undo it's self. Abracadabra all was well again and the SPS turned in one inch groups again.
There is a science behind the cycling of a barrel just as there is when we tune/spine our arrows to our bow draw-weight and draw-length. It's all about finding nodes and anti-nodes as we do when we increase/decrease arrowhead weight to stiffen/soften a shaft. Increasing/decreasing bullet weight can achieve similar results in a rifle barrel, though it's not visible like when we watch an arrow fishtail away from us when the shaft is too short/stiff.
Try the paracod trick. It's not beautiful on a wooden stock but actually adds a little grip to a plastic stock and doesn't look bad. Mine runs for about 2.5 inches in length, along in front of the sling swivel stud. I also added a little superglue to the cord/knot to stop it pulling loose.
-SS-
There is a science behind the cycling of a barrel just as there is when we tune/spine our arrows to our bow draw-weight and draw-length. It's all about finding nodes and anti-nodes as we do when we increase/decrease arrowhead weight to stiffen/soften a shaft. Increasing/decreasing bullet weight can achieve similar results in a rifle barrel, though it's not visible like when we watch an arrow fishtail away from us when the shaft is too short/stiff.
Try the paracod trick. It's not beautiful on a wooden stock but actually adds a little grip to a plastic stock and doesn't look bad. Mine runs for about 2.5 inches in length, along in front of the sling swivel stud. I also added a little superglue to the cord/knot to stop it pulling loose.
-SS-
old roper, one of the 'smiths catering to match rifle folks also worked with another 'smith catering to the BR discipline. I shot matches with him and he was the one in the late '60's or early '70's that mentioned some BR 'smiths were gluing in Rem 700 receivers in BR rifles for the .222 and 22 PPC rounds.
Sweet Shooter, yes there is a science behind the cycling of a barrel. They behave exactly like a guitar string. For a give size, length and fit, they both vibrate/whip at the same frequency regardless of how hard they're stressed from external forces; cartridge firing or finger plucking. The only difference between light forces and heavy ones is the amplitude they wiggle at but the frequency stays the same. Shooting different weight bullets across a wide velocity range doesn't change the barrel's node or antinode points. Different bullet speeds will exit at different points in the barrel's whip cycle, but that cycle is constant in frequency but changes in size. People figured this out over a hundred years ago.
Sweet Shooter, yes there is a science behind the cycling of a barrel. They behave exactly like a guitar string. For a give size, length and fit, they both vibrate/whip at the same frequency regardless of how hard they're stressed from external forces; cartridge firing or finger plucking. The only difference between light forces and heavy ones is the amplitude they wiggle at but the frequency stays the same. Shooting different weight bullets across a wide velocity range doesn't change the barrel's node or antinode points. Different bullet speeds will exit at different points in the barrel's whip cycle, but that cycle is constant in frequency but changes in size. People figured this out over a hundred years ago.
603Country
New member
I think that BartB, in post #5, had the best suggestion. First free float the barrel and see how that works. If it doesn't help, I'd suggest a different stock all together - a synthetic one with the bedding channel or pillar bedding already in place (Hogue makes one, and others do also). If neither of those fixes the problem, I'd go with a new barrel.
I had a friend with a 'walking group' bolt gun in 243 some years ago, and his problem sounds just like the OP's problem. Nothing seemed to fix it, so he finally sold the rifle. The first shot from a cold barrel was Ok, but starting with the second shot and any following shot, the impact point went up and to the right. Had to be the barrel, and that honestly sounds like the OP's problem. Sometimes you just get a bad barrel, though I don't think that it's a common problem.
I had a friend with a 'walking group' bolt gun in 243 some years ago, and his problem sounds just like the OP's problem. Nothing seemed to fix it, so he finally sold the rifle. The first shot from a cold barrel was Ok, but starting with the second shot and any following shot, the impact point went up and to the right. Had to be the barrel, and that honestly sounds like the OP's problem. Sometimes you just get a bad barrel, though I don't think that it's a common problem.
300 wby mag
Swarovski 3-18
180 grain barnes ttsx
78 grains RL19
Clean rifle
2 fouling shots
First two 3 shot groups approx 2" at 200 yds
Then pattern went to 4-6 inches and shots started to walk up and right-left progresivly getting worse...
Fell on my ass pretty hard the other day but?.....
Ideas please
It is a 300 Wby magnum and there is part or most of your answer. You don't say what kind of stock or barrel you have or how many rounds you have through that barrel but I am guessing sporter 26" barrel and fully bedded stock. My gun does the same but my initial cold barrel group of 3 shots, (I don't shoot fouling shots because this is a hunting rifle and I go in the field clean and shoot cold), is a tad under 1 1/2" when I do my part. The next 3 shots if taken soon after are just under 2" and after that the group opens up and you could fry a dozen eggs on my barrel. I am using plain old Remington 180 gr Core Lokt ammo nothing special about it. Left dirty or clean it makes little difference, when the gun cools down I am back to 1 1/2" initial groups. The last few years I learned to limit myself to 5 or 6 shots per session and then go to a different gun. This isn't a gun I am going to use for competition. If I wanted to do that I would put on a heavy match barrel.
Just dos centavos from a dinosaur but I think you are expecting a bit much from a hunting rifle that shoots giddy up go bullets. I use 4350 powder in my reloads, not quite as fast but I gain a little in accuracy, something you might want to think about.
Sweet Shooter
New member
@Bart B... Not disagreeing but to clarify... Given that nodes antinodes remain the same for one mass vs another, ei: frequency, Amplitude is to the largest extent the only variable and is affected by the force exerted upon it from the inside or the outside of the barrel. However frequency is a product of how much stress is resident or "built in" (like stretching a guitar string)... so bedding, up-pressure contributes to installing that. Therefore One influences the other. I'm a guitar player (of some 40 years) and it is possible to pluck/strike a string with a given tension (built in) and extract different frequencies depending on how hard you hit it. It is possible essentially to stiffen a barrel by shooting lighter bullets through it.
-SS-
-SS-
Sweet Shooter:
Ok, your may have a point. Please explain why all the mechanical engineering formulas for calculating barrel (or any other long shape such as a bar, solid rod or even an I or H beam) stiffness and resonant frequency do not include some outside force level or axis to make the barrel vibrate at different frequencies. If what you say is true, then all those formulas are bad.Given that nodes antinodes remain the same for one mass vs another, ei: frequency, Amplitude is to the largest extent the only variable and is affected by the force exerted upon it from the inside or the outside of the barrel. However frequency is a product of how much stress is resident or "built in" (like stretching a guitar string)... so bedding, up-pressure contributes to installing that. Therefore One influences the other.
Sweet Shooter
New member
Balance
@Bart B... I wouldn't say "bad" but they rely on "all things being equal" "ideal situation" a perfect world.
Inherent resonant frequency let's say A440Hz for example, is a given per an objects' mass x tension or pressure. I can get A440Hz out of objects of a different mass (barrel length/string length) by building in a different amount of pressure... the greater the mass the more pressure required to make it cycle at the same resonant freq as an object with less mass (some of that pressure is already built in remember). The duration of the affect has a direct effect and thus bearing on that objects' mass (temporary mass) and therefore resonant freq. As you are aware there is an ever changing set of variables and all we can do is try to bring those variables closer together: Bullet size/weight, powder charge/burn rate, neck tension.
In engineering terms I suppose adding buttresses for support also adds more variables.
-SS-
@Bart B... I wouldn't say "bad" but they rely on "all things being equal" "ideal situation" a perfect world.
Inherent resonant frequency let's say A440Hz for example, is a given per an objects' mass x tension or pressure. I can get A440Hz out of objects of a different mass (barrel length/string length) by building in a different amount of pressure... the greater the mass the more pressure required to make it cycle at the same resonant freq as an object with less mass (some of that pressure is already built in remember). The duration of the affect has a direct effect and thus bearing on that objects' mass (temporary mass) and therefore resonant freq. As you are aware there is an ever changing set of variables and all we can do is try to bring those variables closer together: Bullet size/weight, powder charge/burn rate, neck tension.
In engineering terms I suppose adding buttresses for support also adds more variables.
-SS-
603Country
New member
enough with the competing theories of why the gun won't shoot. Regardless of which of you ever wins this discussion, the gun still won't shoot till action is taken. The OP should have the stock bedded or replaced. If that doesn't fix the problem replace the barrel or the rifle. Or...just take it to a top level gunsmith and tell him to make it shoot. I've done that with two rifles and the results were fantastic.
He could be flinching (I probably would, with that rifle), but that wouldn't give repetitive vertical grouping.
And the BOSS is just plain ugly, even if it works great.
He could be flinching (I probably would, with that rifle), but that wouldn't give repetitive vertical grouping.
And the BOSS is just plain ugly, even if it works great.