Wadcutter data

B

BandeauRouge

Moderator
The manuals other then lyman, do not seem to make any differentiation between hollow base and double ended wadcutters in the holy 38 special.

The only one is alliant with "148 LWC" and "148 LWC TARGET".. and how the target loads seldom go over 800 fps and non target loads max out at 12-1400 fps.

That velocity range is explanatory, but there is so much crappola online with say 2.7 grains BE being the classic HBWC load, but in other spots thats posted as the classic DEWC load for the semi auto pistols.
 
We used to be warned not to load a hollow base wadcutter above factory midrange equivalent for fear of blowing through the hollow base and leaving a lead tube stuck in the gun.
Hodgdon pushes on to 16000 psi and shows some high velocities. I would go by the bullet company's data.
 
BandeauRough,

The density of lead is constant, so whether a longer 148-grain wadcutter with a hollow base or a shorter 148-grain wadcutter with a plain base, or a backward nose, if the front tips are seated to the same COL (usually flush with the case mouth for wadcutters), then the total powder space under the bullets is the same and the same charge will produce the same pressure and velocity. The only warnings are the one Jim provided, blowing through a bullet, and also that too much muzzle blast can blow out the hollow base version to resemble a flat-nosed badminton shuttlecock which is catastrophic for its already-low ballistic coefficient, not to mention that such blow-outs are often at least a little asymmetrical and destroy accuracy from that standpoint, too. Since pressure drops as the bullet moves down the barrel, the shorter the barrel, the smaller the load that can still cause this to happen. The plain base and DEWCs are preferred for practice with snubbys for this reason.

The 2.7-grain Bullseye load is, indeed, an old standby target load for these bullets. 3 grains of 231/HP38 will do about the same thing. The very quick powders, like Norma R1 and Hodgdon Clays, Accurate Nitro 100, and Vihtavuori N310, will use smaller charges and produce the least muzzle blast for a given velocity from an adequate length barrel, but the peak pressure is a bit higher. Still worth trying, though, to see what works best for your gun.
 
A am slightly confused....

The only one is alliant with "148 LWC" and "148 LWC TARGET".. and how the target loads seldom go over 800 fps and non target loads max out at 12-1400 fps.
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Are you saying there is .38 Special data for the 148gr wadcutter in the 12-1400fps range??

That velocity range is explanatory, but there is so much crappola online with say 2.7 grains BE being the classic HBWC load, but in other spots thats posted as the classic DEWC load for the semi auto pistols.
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Data for both wadcutters is the same, 2.7gr Bulleseye in .38special with the 148gr wadcutters gives about 700fps.

The only semi auto pistol I can think of that would shoot .38 Special DEWC is the S&W 52, and those are pretty thin on the ground these days.
 
The only warning is the one Jim provided, which is that too much muzzle blast can blow out the hollow base version to resemble a flat-nosed badminton shuttlecock which is catastrophic for its already-low ballistic coefficient, not to mention that such blow-outs are often at least a little asymmetrical and destroy accuracy from that standpoint, too.
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Not what I said, but Elmer Keith did warn of muzzle blast from short barrels distorting lead bullets.

Are you saying there is .38 Special data for the 148gr wadcutter in the 12-1400fps range??
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No CURRENT data, but Lyman 44 has their 141 gr cast wadcutter up to 1295 fps, faster than any other bullet in the book. Likewise .357 Magnum, they got it up to 1543 fps, again faster than anything else listed. Reduced powder space, pressure must have been out of sight in their regular revolvers, but not obviously enough for them to stop short.
 
its just that gong through older data, from various places..

the proper load for a hollow base in a 38 special case is 2.8 grains of red dot, but the LEE data has copied the max of 3.0 grains from sources..

ironically that is supposed to be the starting load for the 148 grain DOUBLE ENDED WADCUTTER...

and yes i do believe pressure will go up
 
Lyman 44 has their 141 gr cast wadcutter up to 1295 fps,
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I have the 45th edition (1970) and the data is the same.

HOWEVER, there are a couple of points to consider about it.

First, and most important is that the 141gr slug listed is CAST, and they used their No.2 Alloy, the same as all their other cast bullets. These are NOT the soft lead swaged wadcutters sold in bulk by most bulletmakers.

Second, The Lyman manual does not give the seating depth of any bullets, only the max overall loaded length, so, it is entirely possible the heavy loads with hard cast wadcutters were not seated flush with the case mouths, there is no reason they would need to be, so they might have been seated to give the same powder space as "regular" bullets.

Also consider that most of the data for wadcutters (particularly in the past) was for light target loads which the swaged wadcutters were made for. CAST of No.2 alloy the Lyman wadcutter was simply another bullet to be pushed as fast as practical, and went fast due to its lighter than standard weight (141 vs 158gr) and it just happened to be a full wadcutter shape rather than a SWC or RN.

Cast wadcutters and swaged wadcutters can be an apples and oranges thing. Both fruit, both round, but otherwise quite different.
 
True, cast is better than swaged for high velocities, but people were casting wadcutters for target loads long before bulk swaged wadcutters came on the market.

I think Lyman seated that wadcutter to the crimp groove because it gets a higher velocity than any other bullet they show for the caliber, whether 121 or 150 grains. Or do you have an explanation other than conventional deep wadcutter seating reducing the working case volume?
 
speer 12th manual

with speer BB WC seated 1.295 COL

BE 3.9 - 4.5
Red Dot 3.7 - 4.3
231 4.1 - 4.7

Speer HBWC seated flush

Red Dot 2.7 - 3.0
231 3.0 - 3.3
HP-38 2.9 - 3.2
BE 2.8 - 3.1


in speer 12 th

357 magnum Speer HBWC seated flush

HP-38 3.5 - 3.9
Red Dot 3.0 - 3.4
231 3.4 - 3.8
BE 3.0 - 3.3

Alliant manual 2005, with the "new recipes for STEEL and Reloder 25"
only max is given, all with speer bullets and no indication of hollow base or DEWC

357 148 wadcutter TARGET

BE 2.8
Red Dot 2.7

357 magnum 148 NON TARGET

BE 5.7
Red Dot 4.6

38 special 148 TARGET

BE 2.7
Red Dot 2.3

38 Special NON TARGET

BE 2.8
Red Dot 2.5

It is rather hard to say wether these loads are for a HBWC or a DEWC as in the LEE instruction manual for my set of 38/357 dies It has 3.0 grains of Red Dot as MAX.. And that load shoots rather nicely with speer bullets... and no mystery holes in target.

Hornady Hand book of cartridge reloading 3rd editon 1980

38 special, hornady 148 HBWC seated to 1.165

Red Dot 2.4 - 3.5
BE 2.5 - 3.7
231 3.0 - 4.2

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3

lyman 358495 141 gr., (Linotype ) 1.310" OA L
Bullseye 3.0 - 4.1
Red Dot 2.8 - 4.2
231 3.0 -4.9
HP38 2.7 - 4.5

35863 148 gr 1.152 col

Bullseye 2.4 - 3.8
Red Dot 2.5 - 3.7
231 2.5 - 4.1
HP38 2.7 - 3.9

#35891 148 g r 1.317" OA L

Bullseye 2.8 - 4.4
Red Dot 2.7 - 4.1
231 2.8 - 4.6
HP38 2.0 - 4.1

357 magnum #358495 141 gr 1.435 col
IMR-4227 12.3 - 16.3 compressed max load
2400 10.5 - 14.6


Current Alliant website shows a MAX of 3.1 grains of Bullseye with 38 special 148 grain speer HBWC, thought is flush seated.
 
but people were casting wadcutters for target loads long before bulk swaged wadcutters came on the market.
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Sure, and the people doing that for target shooting were almost always casting pure lead or a very soft alloy. Lyman No.2 alloy is much harder than pure lead and if you look in the manual, you'll see that the 1200fps loads were 6.8gr of Unique or 12gr of 2400.

These are not bullseye target loads. They are full house loads and are a grain or more over the max loads for the 158gr bullets.

Test gun was a 6" S&W model 14.

I checked on the Lyman bullet, it is a plain base with 4 grease grooves, and the top one is a perfect place to crimp the bullet with the forward band and the little wadcutter button "nose" outside the case. That is where I would load it if I were using full house powder charges.
 
Another you can load up easily is the Lee Tumble Lube cast wadcutter. Any of the tiny lube grooves in it can be used as a crimp groove, so you can make a lot of extra powder space if you want to, especially with a 357 case. I've only played with hot loading with Power Pistol a little bit. Mostly I've just shot them in target loads as-cast, and achieved groups half the size I could get out of Federal Match wadcutter ammo. This was in a 6" K-frame.


Jim Watson said:
Not what I said, but Elmer Keith did warn of muzzle blast from short barrels distorting lead bullets.
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Apologies. I fixed my post. I must have been hurrying and skimming.

The distortion by muzzle blast was first and most dramatically documented by F. W. Mann in his 1907 book, The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target. He's got photos in there of bullets that have the profile of a Christmas tree, and these didn't even have a hollow base. He got them by capturing the bullets fired from a barrel he cut further and further back until a seated bullet's nose protruded from the end of the barrel.
 
Sure, and the people doing that for target shooting were almost always casting pure lead or a very soft alloy. Lyman No.2 alloy is much harder than pure lead
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Unfortunately, I no longer have my NRA book with extensive material on cast bullets, all I could come up with was an article by some guy named James E. Clark. Ever hear of him? I think he did a little shooting and worked on guns.

"The alloy itself is a very important component. Some loaders advocate about one part tin to ten of lead, but I find this to be too soft to prevent leading and best accuracy cannot be obtained from such soft bullets. A commercial alloy of 90% lead, 5% tin 5% antimony (Lyman No 2) is excellent but for my best match ammunition, I usually use pure Linotype or dilute this slightly with lead."

"For the .38 load I use and recommend 2.7 gr of Bullseye for a 148 gr bullet."

Yes, that is just one approach, but it seems to have been a successful one.


Magnus bullets go to target shooters even though hard cast at Brinnell 18.

Brazos coated bullets are Brinnell 13; they are sponsoring a successful Bullseye shooter who has made the 2600 club.
 
The 2.7 grains of Bullseye is a common load for any 148 grain wadcutter seated flush in a 38 Special, but you can also use it for wadcutters that are seated out slightly.
 
The most popular Lyman and H&G wadcutter molds had a bit of a front band and a crimp groove. I THINK a Colt .38 Super conversion magazine would take it seated to the groove. The S&W Model 52 will not, bullets must be seated flush.
 
To get matching pressure and velocity from DE and HB wadcutters, you theoretically use the same load because the powder space under them is the same, and peak pressure depends strongly on the size of that volume. However, odd things can happen in real life. Go to Hodgdon's load site and look up the 231/HP38 loads for a 148-grain HB wadcutter in both 38 Special and 357 Magnum. The magnum case loads are smaller and show higher pressure. It should be the other way around, but I emailed Hodgdon about it, since it didn't happen with the other powders they listed, and they confirmed that those were the recorded test results. My supposition is that the primer is unseating the bullet out further than it sits in the 357 case before the powder burn gets to its peak in the 38 Special, but why that would only be so for one powder makes no sense to me. So odd things can occur.

When comparing the DE to the HB wadcutters in the same case, note that the longer sides of the HB are going to have more friction with the case, especially when the hollow expands outward against the sides of the case under pressure, so this varies affect the load some.

38 Special cases are generally made so the wall doesn't start to thicken until below the length of a hollow base wadcutter, but it's not guaranteed, and some +P headstamp brass is reported to start narrowing to soon, but I can't say I've had occasion to measure this. My Starline 38 Special cases are uniformly wide inside to about 0.640" below the mouth, where they start to narrow. The Remington 148-grain swaged HB wadcutters I have are 0.630" long, so there's no interference. But my Starline 357 Mag cases get narrow below about 0.600", so I can't seat these bullets flush with their moths without starting to fold them in at the bottom. Perhaps this was a factor for the Hodgdon 231/HP38 load, but it doesn't explain why only one powder was affected by it.
 
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