Voucher problems

Since Thomas Jefferson is my guru, I'll quote from my memory something he wrote: "That tax which shall be paid to support the education of the citizenry isn't one thousandth part the tribute which will be paid to kings priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave them to ignorance."

Using his mind as my guide, I'll say that I believe in making education mandatory through the eigth grade. How it gets paid for is none of my concern. Society does reap the benefits of an educated electorate, but who really is dilusional enough to believe what we've got is an educated electorate (especially in Palm Beach County)? The public school system is failing because of government.

I won't even blame the NEA. The NEA is a symptom of the problem, not the problem. Whenever the Federal government takes over anything, the best way to bargain from within that system becomes to organize. The NEA is a Marxist organization now, but would it be any better if it were a conservative one? I doubt it. The problem is that the schools must meet federal, state, and local mandates. Every level has their priorities, so teachers are having to work to keep up with number 1 priority numbers 1-15. Kinda like Al Gore's seventeen "My first priority when I get in the whitehouse is...."

Schools used to be successful, but it was long before Federal Judges intervened, and Legislatures intervened, and the Congress intervened. The more they get involved the worse it all becomes. People need to feel some sort of ownership for their places of worship and education, and I am philisophically opposed to the government having the keys to our kids mind. If we can respect a separation of church and state (which is nowhere in the constitution), surely we can have a separation of school and state.
 
It seems that the biggest hurdle to overcome in getting a child educated is the teachers union . They fight against vouchers , upgrading teacher qualifications and every other system of forcing them to be responsible for NOT teaching children . Imagine you get on a bus and the driver refuses to drive it . You want them replaced by someone that will do the job . The union won't allow it and the bus still sits .There must be a way of breaking this Marxist monopoly . Maybe it is a way of keeping most children stupid . If they are unsure if they graduated High School or not someone from the State will stop by and read their diploma to them . They can then enjoy high self esteem for whatever the reason du jour is .
 
Education of kids deserves to be supported by taxes because we all benefit enormously from the human capital represented by an educated population. Educated people are more productive, pay more taxes, end up on welfare less often, commit fewer crimes, etc. There is a huge public interest here that justifies large public investments in education. The problem is that we have not been getting our tax money's worth.

We all benefit from a lot of nice things, but that doesn't make it right to hold a gun to someone's head and force them to support it through taxes. Indirect payment through taxes encourages corruption and laziness. If we support the individual by holding his right above the collective, then all of us win in the end, since we are all individuals.

Just because you're educated doesn't mean you're going to do the Right ThingTM according to what the collective wants :).

How do you decide what is 'our' tax money's worth? Isn't that your job as a parent to decide if your individual child is well educated? How can you say that your neighbor's kid's education is worth your salary? If you see that your neighbor's kid is skipping school, or he is not doing his homework and getting poor grades, will you sue your neighbor, since your money was misused in such a manner?

I'll say it again, but before someone can even be educated, they have to have proper nutrition, shelter, etc. If education is so important that we are forced to support it by the gov't gun, it goes without saying that we should pay even higher taxes and be issued food vouchers that are good at any grocery store as well as home vouchers, etc. Is food not more important than schooling? If you say that's ridiculous, you've proved my point. Either you believe in the tax and welfare state, or you don't.

I guess I've said my fill :).

Eric
 
Well said Erik.

Might I add my own experience and perspective: A human being will not learn until they are ready to learn. I attended an awesome school that provided a dizzying array of choices that were all excellent. I wasn't ready to take advantage of it so I failed miserably and barely graduated. I attended college since both of my parents have degrees, and my siblings all have degrees, but I failed because I was dreaming of jumping from airplanes and blowing stuff up. I joined the Army where I found a home and a place to mature. Ten years passed, and now I am back in college except this time instead of being recognized by academic probation, I am recognized as deans list and other scholastic honors. I am now ready to learn. In no small part to the foundation of critical thinking skills laid right here at TFL by folks like CMOS, Dennis, Law Dog ect... (the old bunch).

It would have been far more productive to train me in a trade so that I could support myself until I was ready to learn. I have a natural mechanical aptitude, but my school thought my test scores too high to put me in a vocational track.

We could benefit from less government in our schools so that the tough decisions can be made without fear of a Federal Judge intervening. While I believe everyone should have access to an eigth grade education, I can honestly say that I learned nothing from highschool. A child should be litterate and numerate by the 8th. Eight years is a lot of time to learn, and developmentally a child is as capable of learning at four years old than he will ever get. We just need challenging schools IMO.
 
The idea that everyone benefits from the education of an individual and therefore we should all pay for it is socialist and so I have no tolerance for it.

In addition, it is flawed. There are many children who are moved from grade to grade without learning everything that is taught to them. My grade-school teaching sister will happily tell you that the administration won't let her fail any more than 2 students each year. As a result the only students who get left behind are nearly criminals. The other teachers support her by telling her to just hang in there until he PENSION KICKS IN.

The schools aren't educating.

Politically correct programs are taking over the time necessary for useful educational programs. The DARE programs in grade school take an hour out of useful school time to teach them that drugs can kill them. This isn't one day, it's several weeks long... every day.

They're not teaching. They're brainwashing.

Additional programs such as football, free bussing, baseball, and swimming teams with olympic sized pools do NOT make for a better society. I don't benefit one whit from Johnny Aerodynamic being able to perform a double twist with minimal splash.

What limits do we put on this? Is grade school enough time, how about high school? Surely the world would be a better place if everyone had a PhD. Imagine how healthy we'd all be if everyone from Dr. Quinn Medicine Lesbian to Kristin Crackhead went to medical school.

Free education has been available in this country for years and yet the intelligence level is in the sewer. The largest growing segment of the population is no longer the middle class, but the poor and stupid. 100 years ago, The Last of the Mohicans was the best selling book. This is a long book with big words, complicated sentences and no pictures. Most of today's population couldn't get through a People magazine without having to refer to a dictionary.

For those in the latter catagory, the word 'refer,' in the last sentense, means 'to get information from.' It is not a marijuana cigarette.
 
"If education is so important that we are forced to support it by the gov't gun, it goes without saying that we should pay even higher taxes and be issued food vouchers that are good at any grocery store as well as home vouchers, etc. Is food not more important than schooling? If you say that's ridiculous, you've proved my point. Either you believe in the tax and welfare state, or you don't."

Ayn Rand utopias aside, it's not either-or. You can favor taxation to support some things but not others, and you can favor supporting different things to different degrees through taxation. Disagreements in the real world are over what kinds of things are worthy of tax support, and to what degree. There is usually a mixture of motivations in play, beyond simple compassion or welfare concerns.

The counter examples quoted above are odd because they aren't counter examples. We do pay higher taxes to provide food vouchers (Food Stamps); there are also programs aimed at infant nutrition specifically. Such programs are also a subsidy to farmers, who lobby hard for them. We do pay higher taxes to support housing for other people. Rent subsidies for the poor are one example, but the tax deductibility of mortgage interest for homeowners takes a far larger bite. These program also subsidize land developers, appliance manufacturers, and all facets of the construction industry, a huge component of our economy.

Spending on education is one of the better uses of tax money around, because the payoffs to society are so large. The alternative is a prescription for underdevelopment. History clearly demonstrates that, and so will the future. When fusion technology is developed, or cures for cancer and other dread diseases, does anyone imagine that these will come from societies that refuse to make public investments in education? Anyone want to bet?
 
When fusion technology is developed, or cures for cancer and other dread diseases, does anyone imagine that these will come from societies that refuse to make public investments in education? Anyone want to bet?

You could say the same thing WRT other variables and still not prove causation. IMO the underlying cause is the free market, not tax payer support of anything.

Spending on education is one of the better uses of tax money around, because the payoffs to society are so large. The alternative is a prescription for underdevelopment. History clearly demonstrates that, and so will the future.

How does history clearly demonstrate it? I guess I missed that part in my public school education :).
 
"Spending on education is one of the better uses of tax money"

That is debateable ... and not the issue.

The issue is this, is it a good thing or a bad thing to have an education system that is nothing more than a government controled monopoly? Should an educated people who must be on guard for their liberties which might be taken from them by a less than freedom-loving government be forced to spend twelve of their greatest formative years in government education camps?

I say NO.

Rick
 
I believe that civilized society's should educate their children. I also believe in a few pillars of civilization. In every advanced and long-lasting civilization we find a few things:

Personal responsibility: Our society is losing this one quicker than any of the other three. Nobody is responsible for squat anymore. Crack mothers should be held personally accountable for the proper raising of their kids. If you make a child, you support it and all that goes with it. It would probably be much cheaper if I had to pay for private schools of my own choice, and not pay property taxes all my life. Chances are I'll end up paying ten-fold what it cost to educate my kids. In essence, this is theft. See #2

Sacredness of private property: Anytime anyone takes money from you at force of violence, it is clearly theft. It doesn't matter whether it is the government or a group of armed thugs. The income tax completely reversed the position of government from servant to master. Since it was only 1 percent on the rich, folks didn't mind. Now it is 25% on my income and I am only a few thousand above the poverty level. The government owns your labor, chooses how much to let you have, and thus in principle, you are a slave. Olympic sized pools, golf courses, tennis courses, and massive stadiums have little to do with the preservation of the Republic, and a lot to do with the vanity of school boards. I urge you all to learn of the "bread and circuses" of ancient Rome.

Enforced Contracts: No society can long stand unless contracts are enforced. The state is charged with enforcing contracts, but they entered into a contract to educate our kids and have failed. All we ask is that the contract having been violated be enforced. Since the state can't seem to get it right, we should have recourse to break that contract and pursue our own remedies to educate our kids.

Just my opinion. I've learned some good perspectives on this thread so far. I do learn a bunch at TFL.
 
Just my opinion. I've learned some good perspectives on this thread so far. I do learn a bunch at TFL.

I agree, kjm. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes with my comments. Education is a big issue for this country, and we won't make any changes without the majority's blessing. For those that simply want school choice, you're probably going to get your wish soon. For those that want to end taxpayer subsidies for education, we've got a long road to hoe. I just hope I'm around when it finally happens.
 
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