Vin Supranowicz...Send in the Waco Killers, Ballad of Carl Drega

D

Danzig

New member
Several years ago I read "Send in the Waco Killers". A couple of months ago I read "The Ballad of Carl Drega".

I highly recommend each of those books as a way to educate oneself on the continual erosion of our liberties.

I have one contention with something that he wrote in Waco and mentioned again in Ballad, that being his assertion that CS gas is a nerve agent.

I have been in the military for some time and I believe that I would know if that were the case. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but CS is strictly a respiratory irritant with no nerve agent properties.

ANYWAY, has anyone else read either of these books, and would you care care to comment on them?
 
Cs/Cn

I googled for a while and ask jeeves ,did not find the answer specifically ,but in my limited understanding I would say ,Yes,definatly a nerve agent.
After reading the effect and side effect of this stuff,whew!
Any one else know,also did not take the time to search the actual ingridients of the chemical,
I have read Send in the Waco Killers a few yrs ago,and I recommend it often.
You could email the author,I bet he would answer you.
 
danzig, the ballad of Carl Drega, is that the same one from N.H.? I am well aware of him and see him only as a cold blooded lunatic killer. My neighbor a retired trooper was well involved being high up in ther major crimes unit and folklore and truth about Drega are two completely different Drega's. I live in N.H. and Drega was more than a few french fries short of a happy meal. The lives he left in ruin as well as the community was horrific. He ambushed and murdered people and came to an end much deserving. An acquaintance of mine lives there and has for most of his life and he is very conservative from his experience and towns people, Drega was a loose cannon, a bully and about as unstable as one gets. I think that some authors ignore facts and write to their own agenda and beliefs. yes perhaps some of the Liberals in town running the status quo rubbed him the wrong way and may even have done him wrong, but his reaction was totally insane.

As for Waco I think the Government got away with cold blooded murder period. Waco is a disgrace to America, law enforcement, and the constitution. Sickening how if you are a Government agent you are not held to the same standards of law as a citizen.
Waco had a predetermined outcome, OPERATION SHOWTIME says it all! As a retired member of the military what law enforcement did in Waco was the direct opposite of what I stood for and took an oath to defend.
 
Interestingly...

I just watch a show on Waco last night...

As I understood it CS was NOT a nerve agent, simply a powerful irritant...Problem was the fire turned the CS into (???) cyanide gas (same as they use in the gas chamber), which is, of course a very powerful nerve agent.

Sad to say, I had never really gotten into the "whole story", just bits and pieces before last night...Fascinating, and amazing that our government could do what they did...
 
CS better not be a nerve agent, seeing as once I spent ten minutes in the CS chamber with my mask off. Of course, that might explain why I am the way I am... :p
 
CS is not a nerve agent. Of course in high concentrations (eg: in enclosed spaces) it can cause death by asphyxiation. Once the smoke cleared, I doubt the dead kids at Waco noticed the nuance between death by fire, death by gunfire or death by asphyxiation.

They weren't given too many other choices.
Rich
 
s I understood it CS was NOT a nerve agent, simply a powerful irritant...
Click to expand...
CS isn't, but the liquid in which it was carried was. Do a google on ethylene chloride and see if you can get some MSDS info on.

Nasty stuff. People went inert the moment it as pumped, at high pressure, into the building. Et-chloride is also flamable if it is warmed enough to disperse it in vapor form.

CS can also be flamable if the particles are dispersed finely enough, a la corn grain dust in a soon-to-be-kablooey grain silo.

Rick
 
Actually...

they stated that the CS was dissolved in METHYLENE Chloride, not Ethylene Chloride....But, I hope neither is a "nerve agent" as I used to use both constantly when I worked in a chemical plant, not to mention routinely in many of my college chemistry classes. Now I do however recall that at least ethylene chloride is a known carcinogen.
 
dfaugh

What is that signature of yours from?

CS not used much anymore as far as I know in civilian application but some.
Hardwood floors and cs cannisters was a fire looking to happen.
SLA shoot out was a good example. Burn baby burn.

Harley
 
It's "Let's Roll" made by some dude, I think Neil Diamond, after the 9/11 attacks to commemorate the victims and the flight that fought back.
 
they stated that the CS was dissolved in METHYLENE Chloride, not Ethylene Chloride....But, I hope neither is a "nerve agent"
Click to expand...
Yes, "they." But it doesn't matter. Most of what I have read on Waco cites Et-chloride as the solvent. Either one is bad from the standpoint of how and where it was used. Me-chloride is more flamable.

"Nerve agent?" Not in the classical military sense. But if they had suspended the CS particles in ether or chloroform it would have had the same effect. They would have been out like a light, and some estimates put the Waco concentration of organic solvent at point of contact up to and beyond lethal levels.

Anyone standing in the room where that crap was blasted in was DOA.

Rick
 
Yankee, yes..it's the same Carl Drega. The book isn't about Mr. Drega..he is only one of numerous examples of people who have had enough of government tyranny. Vin does not hold Drega out as any kind of a hero...only as someone who was pushed too far and snapped.

Dfaugh, was that "Waco: Rules of Engagement" or "Waco: A New Revelation"? I have seen the former but I have not seen the latter..which is a "sequel" to Rules of Engagement.
 
Ingram, Thanks

That was one heroic effort. Can't imagine if that one would have made it to it's point of aim. (shudder)

Lets never forget that day, EVER...

Harley
 
It's not murder

As for Waco I think the Government got away with cold blooded murder period. Waco is a disgrace to America, law enforcement, and the constitution. Sickening how if you are a Government agent you are not held to the same standards of law as a citizen.
Click to expand...
AMEN to that!!
Waco had a predetermined outcome, OPERATION SHOWTIME says it all! As a retired member of the military what law enforcement did in Waco was the direct opposite of what I stood for and took an oath to defend.
Click to expand...
And that!!

Nixon said, "If the President (meaning himself) does it, it's not unlawful."

I guess the ATF & FBI's version is "If the ATF & FBI kill people, it's not murder." Let's ask Randy Weaver for his thoughts on that one.

Apologies to any and all federal agents who have the integrity to stand by the oath they took to "Protect and defend the Constitution against all enenies, foreign and domestic."

You don't have to look very far these days, gents...
 
Danzig glad to hear that, Drega was not your typical pushed to the limit person though. he was a if you get within 20 feet of my bumber road rage will come to a new level. I wouldn't want to live in the same town as him. he was pushed but he also was a big part of the problem. I see it like this, for every action there is a reaction and he wasn't reasonable in his approach and if the outcome wasn't all Drega then it was war! His actions peeved off lots of people in places that caused him most of his problems.

We have a legal system that usually and I say usually works but sadly not always and in some cases horrific cases leak through the cracks. I think that Judges have to be held accountable for incompetence and here in N.H. its a life long appointed position. I have seen bias toward men in the courtroom also, and this has to change. We had a woman ambush and shoot her boyfriend 5 times in a hallway because he was verbally abusive at times then broke off the relationship and told her to leave which she had. She then days later bought a gun for the sole purpose of killing him, he did survive. She was upset because she left her husband and children for him, but he also left his family. The judge gave her ZERO time, she was never physically threatened or abused. The same day the same judge gave a man 90 days for hitting his wife with an OPEN HAND!!!!!
 
Yankee, I am not trying to start and argument or attempt to make Drega out as any kind of hero myself, but according to Vin, the town of Columbia, NH had been hassling Drega for one thing or another since the 60s. All of the disputes came about because the town kept blocking his attempt to use his own property as he saw fit.

Origionally it started because he didn't finish off a tar paper covered roof in the amount of time that the town thought reasonable and lastly because the state of NH hauled him into court for backfilling a portion of his property that had eroded away along the Columbia River without a permit.

It doesn't sound like Drega acted in any way violently during that 30+ year time period. But he was driven to madness by the constant infringement of his property rights by government in many of it's various levels.

Mr. Drega was mad. Would you or I have been mad under similar circumstances? I know I would have. That doesn't mean that you or I would have taken the same actions that He did. But certainly I can understand his frustration.

Vin doesn't cite Drega's story to make him out as any kind of hero..only to point out one case of where the government's actions led to disastrous consequences.
 
Are you saying he was angry or mad? I'd vote for mad. Or insane if you prefer.

"Explosives, including ammonium nitrate, C-4 (an explosive), and 86 pipe bomb casings, were later found on Drega's property, hidden in his barn or within his elaborate tunnel system." - local newspaper report

I thought he tarpapered the entire house, not just the roof. His backfilling consisted of dumping stuff in the river and he didn't own the river. And shooting over people's heads when they approach your driveway isn't exactly neighborly, now is it?

It's a real shame he didn't simply commit suicide and go out like a real man instead of like the murdering coward he was.

John
 
Well, Jonbt, you must remember he previously owned a bit of the river shore and was trying to restore it after it collapsed.

And I dont think anybody - including Vin - thinks Drega's action are justified.
 
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