Victory Model? HELP!!
- Thread starter 1911A1 fan
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
Lone Star,
S&W was well past the the 350K mark on M&Ps by the time WW II rolled around. By 1931 the company should have been well into the 500K serial number range. There's no way a frame like this hung around the factory for 15 years just waiting to be shipped.
But, I see Old Fluff has discovered the solution.
Fluff, it's good to see another knowledgable S&W afficionado here!
Redhawk, yep, Vega would be the company name, and I'd bet the rest of it means Sacramento California.
After the US entered the war in 1941, the "US Property" stamping was dropped. That had been a requirement of Lend Lease, or the earlier Cash & Carry, policies. Can't remember which. Once formal war was declared, no such stampings were needed.
S&W was well past the the 350K mark on M&Ps by the time WW II rolled around. By 1931 the company should have been well into the 500K serial number range. There's no way a frame like this hung around the factory for 15 years just waiting to be shipped.
But, I see Old Fluff has discovered the solution.
Fluff, it's good to see another knowledgable S&W afficionado here!
Redhawk, yep, Vega would be the company name, and I'd bet the rest of it means Sacramento California.
After the US entered the war in 1941, the "US Property" stamping was dropped. That had been a requirement of Lend Lease, or the earlier Cash & Carry, policies. Can't remember which. Once formal war was declared, no such stampings were needed.
Redhawk my friend,
If I was in your shoes I might drop a line to Roy Jinks at Smith & Wesson with a $35.00 check to learn the history of that gun. Guns were not always shipped in sequential order of their serial numbers, but I think your gun probably went out some time in middle-later 1943. Some of the guns that were not lend-leased to the British and switched to domestic assignments in this country were not marked “U.S. Property” or “United States Property” on the topstrap. I would expect it to have “G.H.D.” on the butt near the “V” for Col. Guy H. Drewry, the government inspector. But yes, your gun has an importer’s marking indicating it was re-imported from overseas, and it does seem to have British or Commonwealth property marks. If S&W records show that it was shipped to “Navy Strategic Services” in Rossyln, VA it is probably one of the mysterious OSS guns. A very, very long shot, but it might pay off.
If I was in your shoes I might drop a line to Roy Jinks at Smith & Wesson with a $35.00 check to learn the history of that gun. Guns were not always shipped in sequential order of their serial numbers, but I think your gun probably went out some time in middle-later 1943. Some of the guns that were not lend-leased to the British and switched to domestic assignments in this country were not marked “U.S. Property” or “United States Property” on the topstrap. I would expect it to have “G.H.D.” on the butt near the “V” for Col. Guy H. Drewry, the government inspector. But yes, your gun has an importer’s marking indicating it was re-imported from overseas, and it does seem to have British or Commonwealth property marks. If S&W records show that it was shipped to “Navy Strategic Services” in Rossyln, VA it is probably one of the mysterious OSS guns. A very, very long shot, but it might pay off.
Mike Irwin:
Don’t think so. S&W continued to mark “United States Property” and then “U.S. Property” On Victory Models (.38 Special/4 & 2 inch barrels) throughout the war, although some were marked “U.S Navy.” Both the model 38-200 and Victory Model were in production at the same time and used identical frames. Therefore most examples of both models will have one of these markings on the topstrap. The major exception is guns made before Lend-Lease started. It is true that some latter production 38-200 revolvers are not marked. I believe this was the case because they were supposed (?) to be used in the United States in generally non-military applications such as arming civilian defense plant guards. I could be wrong. A lot more research needs to be done here.
Don’t think so. S&W continued to mark “United States Property” and then “U.S. Property” On Victory Models (.38 Special/4 & 2 inch barrels) throughout the war, although some were marked “U.S Navy.” Both the model 38-200 and Victory Model were in production at the same time and used identical frames. Therefore most examples of both models will have one of these markings on the topstrap. The major exception is guns made before Lend-Lease started. It is true that some latter production 38-200 revolvers are not marked. I believe this was the case because they were supposed (?) to be used in the United States in generally non-military applications such as arming civilian defense plant guards. I could be wrong. A lot more research needs to be done here.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Fluff,
Friend of mine has a .380-200, well into the V range, with no "US Property" stamp on it.
Hum... Interesting.
Nahaus and Supica say that the guns should be marked US Property.
I've seen at least 2 that have not been marked, my friend's above, and a .38 Spl. that came through the shop a couple of years ago.
Friend of mine has a .380-200, well into the V range, with no "US Property" stamp on it.
Hum... Interesting.
Nahaus and Supica say that the guns should be marked US Property.
I've seen at least 2 that have not been marked, my friend's above, and a .38 Spl. that came through the shop a couple of years ago.
Mike Irwin;
I also have a 38-200 / 5" / "V" -Series that isn't marked "U.S. Property" although it does have the "G.H.D." inspector's mark on the butt. There is no question that some guns got out of the factory without being stamped. The question is; was the mark overlooked during production or was it a deliberate omission? I think the answer is, "both." Like you, I have seen Victory Models that weren't marked either.
The now little known Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC) was created on August 29, 1940. This was a government agency that was to: ...stockpile strategic and critical materials other then rubber, ninerals and metals, and otherwise facilitate production and procurement of necessary materials. Among other things they purchased many thousands of small arms for defense plant guards, state and federal police, and other federal (non-military) and state personal. (Pate).
These were government orders, but not military orders.
Some 128,000 handguns were purchased by the DSC from S&W, Colt and H&R. (Pate)
They may also have been a cover for the OSS and other covert operations, and what they purchased wasn't necessarily marked according to military regulations, as this was a civilian agency(?) In wartime who knows. I would bet that at least some of those unmarked revolvers were sold on DSC contracts, but the only one who could find out is Roy Jinks at Smith & Wesson. He has the records.
I also have a 38-200 / 5" / "V" -Series that isn't marked "U.S. Property" although it does have the "G.H.D." inspector's mark on the butt. There is no question that some guns got out of the factory without being stamped. The question is; was the mark overlooked during production or was it a deliberate omission? I think the answer is, "both." Like you, I have seen Victory Models that weren't marked either.
The now little known Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC) was created on August 29, 1940. This was a government agency that was to: ...stockpile strategic and critical materials other then rubber, ninerals and metals, and otherwise facilitate production and procurement of necessary materials. Among other things they purchased many thousands of small arms for defense plant guards, state and federal police, and other federal (non-military) and state personal. (Pate).
These were government orders, but not military orders.
Some 128,000 handguns were purchased by the DSC from S&W, Colt and H&R. (Pate)
They may also have been a cover for the OSS and other covert operations, and what they purchased wasn't necessarily marked according to military regulations, as this was a civilian agency(?) In wartime who knows. I would bet that at least some of those unmarked revolvers were sold on DSC contracts, but the only one who could find out is Roy Jinks at Smith & Wesson. He has the records.
Hi folks, figured I could chime in on this subject.
I have a .38 special Victory model, serial# V2124xx. It is Parkerized, with smooth wood grips and 4-inch barrel. It does not have the cartouche mentioned nor does it have the "US Property" mark. I was told on smith-wesson forum that it may have been kept in the US to arm a guard at a war-industry factory...apparently some VMs were kept in-country for this purpose. Does this sound plausible?
I have a .38 special Victory model, serial# V2124xx. It is Parkerized, with smooth wood grips and 4-inch barrel. It does not have the cartouche mentioned nor does it have the "US Property" mark. I was told on smith-wesson forum that it may have been kept in the US to arm a guard at a war-industry factory...apparently some VMs were kept in-country for this purpose. Does this sound plausible?
Thisaway:
Yes, the story about your Victory Model could well be true. Another (slim) possibility is that it ended up with one of the spook agencies such as the OSS. Last but not least, they may have made a mistake and forgot to stamp it. I think this is unlikely. I estimate your gun was made sometime during the Summer or Fall of 1942. The only way to know is to send a $35.00 check made out to Smith & Wesson to: Smith & Wesson; P.O. Box 2208; Springfield, MA. 01102; Attn: Mr. Roy Jinks. Enclose a letter describing the gun, and a snapshot of it if possible.
Roy is Smith & Wesson’s company historian and he has access to all of the available records. He will send you a letter describing the general history of the model, and the specific history of your particular gun as the company knows it. Part of the $35.00 fee goes to the U.S. International Shooting Team - a nice gesture.
Yes, the story about your Victory Model could well be true. Another (slim) possibility is that it ended up with one of the spook agencies such as the OSS. Last but not least, they may have made a mistake and forgot to stamp it. I think this is unlikely. I estimate your gun was made sometime during the Summer or Fall of 1942. The only way to know is to send a $35.00 check made out to Smith & Wesson to: Smith & Wesson; P.O. Box 2208; Springfield, MA. 01102; Attn: Mr. Roy Jinks. Enclose a letter describing the gun, and a snapshot of it if possible.
Roy is Smith & Wesson’s company historian and he has access to all of the available records. He will send you a letter describing the general history of the model, and the specific history of your particular gun as the company knows it. Part of the $35.00 fee goes to the U.S. International Shooting Team - a nice gesture.
>> I wonder, does the Defense Supplies Corporation still exist in today's bureaucracy?<<
No, they are long gone. Today most civilian agencies place their own orders for firearms. Unlike 1940 supply is more then equal to demand. Then it was necessary to allocate limited supplies.
S&W 28-200 revolvers are interesting to those who know their history. Even better, since most of today's handgun buyers are not interested in a big revolver, with a long barrel, chambered for a weak cartridge you can often pick them up for a song.
Don't tell anyone this though......
No, they are long gone. Today most civilian agencies place their own orders for firearms. Unlike 1940 supply is more then equal to demand. Then it was necessary to allocate limited supplies.
S&W 28-200 revolvers are interesting to those who know their history. Even better, since most of today's handgun buyers are not interested in a big revolver, with a long barrel, chambered for a weak cartridge you can often pick them up for a song.
Don't tell anyone this though......