Victory Model? HELP!!

1

1911A1 fan

New member
Picked up a sweet old Smith wheel gun for a song. But need help it looks like a Victory Model, in .38 S&W but no V in the serial # its marked "D^D vega SAC CA" on the left side of the frame. Can anyone tell me what I have and the value at a true 95% Thanks for any help you can give.
 
You have a Smith & Wesson 1905 Hand Ejector/Model 2 revolver. The “Model 2” designation comes from the British, who were the original customers for the gun. They also called it the “S&W 38-200. It should have a 5 inch barrel (although some early ones had 4”, 5” and 6” barrels). Depending on when it was made (production started in 1940) it may have a bright, commercial blue- brush finish satin blue - or be Parkerized. Refinished guns are almost always Parkerized and some have had a coat of black paint over the phosphate. They are intended to use the .38 S&W cartridge (not .38 Special). Beware of guns that have been rechambered to .38 Special, they are not safe too shoot. Early guns had checkered, commercial grade walnut grips. Later production had plain walnut grips. All should have a lanyard swivel on the butt. Early gun were serial number in the regular commercial series, falling between about 700,000 through 1,000,000. Thereafter they were number in a “V” series from V-1 to around V-769,000. All were made between 1940 to 1945.

Many of these revolvers were used by the United States military services during World War Two and after. Those sent to the British and Commonwealth countries such as South Africa, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have proof and property marks from those respective countries. Those that were “commandeered” by US forces (including the OSS) will not be so marked. Guns made after we got into the war (early 1942 and later) are marked “UNITED STATES PROPERTY” OR “U.S. PROPERTY” on the left side of the topstrap regardless of whom got them.

If your gun has not been rechambered it should be a good “fun shooter.” In any case it’s an interesting relic with a lot of history behind it. The markings on the side you listed identify the importer who brought them back into the United States, probably recently.
 
This is a good answer, but those for US use (it was the standard revolver for the Navy and Marine aviators and the Coast Guard) are in the normal .38 Special caliber, and had four-inch bbls., except for a few made for the Justice Dept., with two-inch bbls.
During the 1960's, some of these Navy guns were transferred to the USAF until sufficient M15 Combat Masterpiece models were available. I carried one for a time.

Lone Star
 
Also, the 38S&W is a really fun round. It is super accurate and a joy to shoot. Ammo is still readily available and not too expensive.
 
Lone Star is confusing the Model No. 2/38-200 and the so-called “Victory Model.” Although the 38-200 preceded the Victory Model, after 1942 both were made at the same time and serial numbered in the same “V” series. Both were marked on the topstrap as US Property and many Victory Models had US Navy markings. The Victory Models were chambered in .38 Special and usually had 4” barrels, although a handful were made with 2” barrels. (Beware of fakes). The .38-200 revolvers were chambered for what we know as the .38 S&W cartridge and barrel length was standardized at 5 inches. Other then chambering and barrel length these revolvers were identical.

Because of a severe shortage of handguns a fairly large number of 38-200 revolvers were diverted to the U.S. side of the picture. Many were used to arm guards at defense plants and issued to domestic police forces. The OSS also obtained a substantial number for unknown clandestine purposes. In fact, after Britain and her Commonwealth countries the OSS was the single largest buyer of .38-200 revolvers. They were also the only military service to contract for .38 S&W ammunition with jacketed bullets during the war.
 
Old Fuff-

I'm not confused; I've just never seen any of the Commonwealth .38/200 revolvers in .38 S&W (not .38 Special) marked "U.S.Navy"! They do often carry, "U.S. Property" stamps on the top strap, as do many of the No. 4 Mk.I* rifles made by Savage/Stevens. These were delivered under Lend/Lease contracts. Such guns may exist, but I doubt they were ever issued by our navy, and don't see why the British guns would have that marking. But strange things happen...OSS may have requisitioned some for guerillas fighting Japanese in Burma, etc.

The book, "The Road to Arnhem", by Donald R. Burgett (a former member of the 101st Airborne Div.) details the wartime exploits of his regiment during and after Operation Market-Garden in 1944. Burgett talked with British tank forces in Holland, and noted that most of the tankers carried these S&W .38's.

My brother once owned an early commercial grade .38/200 with six-inch barrel and checkered stocks with gold medallion. It had seen either little use or excellent care, and was a delight to examine. As I recall, it shot well with 146 grain US commercial ammo, but the point of impact was lower than expected, as the guns were sighted for bullets weighing 178-200 grains.

These guns and the equivalent Webley and Enfield No. 2 revolvers served well, but lacked penetration, particularly when the enemy was dressed in heavy winter clothing. Stopping power wasn't good, and many Commonwealth troops who had a choice (especially special operations personnel) often chose German or US guns, or the older .455 revolvers.

Hope this was of interest.

Lone Star
 
I agree with what you just said, and no, as far as I know the Navy didn't use 38-200 revolvers and none I know of were so marked. However it is clear that they were used to some degree by U.S. forces (such as the OSS) and on the home front. Your first post seemed to imply that this revolver didn't have any connection to the our war effort, other then being manufactured by S&W. This was the point I wanted to clear up.
 
The use of .380-200 revolvers by US forces was discussed several months ago.

Since that time I've found one reference to these handguns being in US military stores.

The reference is in a book by Ed Ezell, a small paperback that's a survey of the world's military weaponry.
 
For more detailed information see: "U.S. Handguns of World War II; The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers" by Charles W. Pate. This is probably the most authorative book on the subject.
 
I have one of these revolvers in excellent condition. It is marked 38 S&W on the barrel. I was told that it was made for the austrailian market, whether civilian or military, I do not know. I 'assume' it was military because of the lanyard swivel on the butt.

The .38 S&W ctg. takes a bullet about .003" larger than the .38 Special, and the outside diameter of the case is about .007" larger than the .38 Special/.357 case, but 'some' 38 special guns will accept .38S&W cartridges.

The best luck I have had in handloading this ctg. is to use 148 gr. hollow base wad cutters designed for the .38 Special. These tend to expand to fill the grooves of the barrel and shoot pretty well.

I regret that I have not been able to find any cast bullets sized to .361" to try, but I can tell you that cast bullets sized to .358" do not preform well at all

The advice to avoid rechambered specimens of this gun is probably a good idea, givin the difference in the diameters of the cartridges, however, I doubt that 38 Special factory loads would create enough pressure to cause a serious danger particularly since the bullets in the Special are somewhat undersized for the bore in these guns.


http://photos.imageevent.com/joelcrabtree/gunlist/websize/IM000253.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/joelcrabtree/gunlist/websize/IM000255.jpg
 
For bullets for the S&W round chech out

the offerings for the 9x18 makporov round. (I am talking bullets only not the cartridge) The 9x18 has a bullet dismeted close to the S&W round (.363 vs .365) much closer thae a std 38 special bullet(.357 vs .365) find a source of cast makarov bullets and regulsate your sights to the lighter weigh bullet and you should be all set. It should even work for jhp's designed for the mak round.
 
Redhawk44;

What is the serial number of your gun? (Use xx for the last two numerals). I’ll try to find you some more information. The “broad arrow” mark under “Made in USA” on the front of the frame is a British or Commonwealth military property mark. The likelihood of it going to Australia is very possible. More that that I can’t tell from the picture. Does look like a neat gun.
 
357xxx is the number.

I am not too good as a photographer, but with experimentation, maybe I'll be able to do better in the future.
 
Hum...

You sure about that serial number? Where are you getting that number?

That's WAY too early for a .380-200.

S&W hit 241K in the M&P line in 1915, and 700K in 1940.

You do the math, and you come out with a gun made sometime in the late 1920s or early 1930s.

Production was very strong up through about 1931, after that it tailed off significantly through the worst years of the depression, resulting in near bankruptcy for the company by 1939.

S&W was almost finished off by the Light Rifle fiasco in 1939-40, but it was Carl Helstrom who in 1940 proposed taking the $1 million advance payment by the British (they wanted the money back when the LR project failed) and proposed supplying M&P revolvers.

Prior to 1940, there were virtually no orders placed by Britain for .380-200 revolvers, as British factories were able to keep up with production needs.
 
PMFJI, but what exactly do I have here?....It's a S&W w/6" barrel chambered for .38S&W. I've seen it referred to as a .380-200 in some references, but now I'm wondering..?
The gun came with the fugly target grips...I've since installed some "original" service grips on it. Serial number is 7297xx

I'll upload three pictures altogether.
 

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Mike,

You've got a US-made .380/200, fairly early among the guns made by S&W for the British & Commonwealth.

It's a "pre-Victory" model, as it doesn't have the V-prefix on the serial number.
 
This looks just like my brother's six-inch .38/200, except that his had the original grips. Probably shipped in 1940 or 1941.

If the serial No. is "off" for the date, that sort of thing happens with S&W. Check out the S&W collectors' board at www.smith-wessonforum.com . They sometimes discuss this stuff.

One explanation could be that the frame had been made and numbered, but not made up into a complete gun until the British order came in. Or the gun may have been sold commercially in Britain well before the war, not being part of the military orders beginning in April, 1940. However, it has the Broad Arrow acceptance marks, so I'd think it was a military order.

Looks like a nice, clean piece. Take care of it. Should be good for rabbits or most snakes out to maybe 25 yards. This is an interesting piece of history.

By the way, I saw a photo of RAF pilots in North Africa with the butts of their revolvers hanging way out of their canvas webbing holsters, which were made for five-inch barrelled guns. I think what happened was that they had these six-inch barrels, and were using available holsters. Wouldn't be surprised if some were issued with holsters for the Webley Mk. VI .455, which were probably long enough to fit, although the guns probably moved around inside as the wearer ran or jumped. As far as I know, no special holsters were issued for these longer barrels, although local armorers may have improvised something. I read somewhere that the four-inch model was popular with Field Security troops, who sometimes carried their revolvers in their coats.

Lone Star
 
Redhawk44:

Look at the butt of your revolver again and see if the serial number is on one side of the lanyard loop stud and a letter “V” on the other side. I think the full serial number is V- 357xxx which would be correct.



Mike Davis:

The first 38-200 revolvers were made for the British, although early shipments went to South Africa and others. These were commercial grade guns, not marked “United States Property” and for the most part had a bright blue finish and checkered walnut stocks with nickel plated trade-mark monograms. While 5” barrels were preferred a war was on, and they used 4, 5 and 6 inch barrels to get over the first hump. Serial numbers started in the commercial series at around 700,000. I think your gun was made in 1940. Some early 6” guns went to Canada. Look under the grips on the side of the frame and see if the letter “B” is stamped anywhere.
 
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