Very frustrating conversation with a "liberal"

This is someone i work with quite a bit. To give you an idea, the discussion posted about took place in several pigeon coops(homers and rollers) while cleaning them out.

In the last week or so we have been to hard pressed to solve the worlds emergency problems such as the great oil slick and AZ immigration to get back to gun control.
 
Try this. He has a few guns for hunting so he obviously likes to shoot to some degree. Invite him to shoot with you, leaving any argument out of it. Just call that you are plinking for an afternoon, etc. Take any guns you have that he thinks should be banned. Bring another friend maybe, and his guns. Try out his guns and ask him to try your's. Holding a "bad gun" and shooting it may have some effect on his thinking. If he likes that weapon, it may be harder for him to advocate banning it. He's not evil and did nothing evil with it, etc. Sometimes such things cause a person to rethink. I agree, some people cannot be reasoned with. It is possible with some. May not happen all at once. Best wishes with this.
 
I have been considering taking him shooting. I let my membership to my local club with a good range expire this year. I am going to check out a public range(with RO I know) tomorrow. If it goes well I may invite him there.
I still have access to my old club for CMP, NDR(rimfire pistol), and RRL(rimfire rifle legue) shoots, so i may see if i can get him to one of those. I think the CMP guys would be the most helpful and it would allow him to shoot an AR, M1 Carbine, Grand, and mini-14 if he wanted.
 
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polite conversations

I had a conversation with a liberal lady long ago the subject came up on guns she was anti, I just took a shot in the dark and mentioned mine had never been used for the bad and most are 60 plus years old museume quality
She said "I never thought about the collector aspect" I then informed her these oldies are functionaly the same as the new manufactured. the tecnology has been fairly the same for some time.
I think this helped her think outside the box.
 
Back when Britain lost the battle to keep firearms, there was crap all over the news about how gun involved violence was on the rise. How horrible guns were and how easy it made a life of crime a viable option. Those that would disarm a nation used the media to promote their agenda and scare the majority of people into giving up their basic right to defend themselves with firearms.

Now, guess what's all over the news in Britain? Knife violence is becoming uncontrollable. It's on the rise. How knives make a persons choice of a life of crime easier.

Will they then remove all knives from the public and make butter knives the only legal knife a person can own?

Then it will get to the media clamoring on about clubs and sticks and rocks.

There's a lot of truth to the old saying that if you make it illegal for the regular public to own guns, only the police and the criminal's will own them. But that's also very misleading as well. Look at Britain today. Guns are RARELY used in crimes now. The police don't have guns, the public can't own guns. It's so hard to get a gun over there that even the criminals have resorted to what is legal. Knives.

But just how many deaths is that preventing? Who knows. But it doesn't stop the criminal element from being criminals and there's now more crime per 100,000 people than ever before.

Some people, like liberals, just can't figure out how this will work out. Holding the individual responsible? Can't have that now can we? That would mean too many people who think for themselves.
 
How do I convert him?

You don't. And you stop trying. You've already said you two have several points of agreement. Just stop there and let him support gun control. BUT...

Push the argument that what is needed, and ALL that is needed is enforcement (and punishment) of already existing laws. That's all we need. Just do the damn job.

See if you can get a commitment from him on that. THAT IS A VICTORY. He doesn't have to join the movement for repeal, or march or anything, except say STOP! ENOUGH! Do the job with what you have!

He doesn't feel the need for more than what he has, and like many, many unthinking individuals, feels that the rest out to be controlled, one way or another. After all, you can see 24/7 somebody getting shot on the screen, the news is so slanted a brick would roll on the slope. His world is his life, and what the screen and papers tell him it is. And absent to direct personal experience to the contrary, he'll believe that the answer is the one they keep telling him it is. Hell, see how he feels about Helmet Laws!? He may be a closet passionate libertarian on some other subject.

If he is, and actually uses logic for his basis on that subject, you have a chance of making him see the logic on the other subject. But don't force it. As long as you can get him to stop supporting then constant more!, More! MORE! from the gun banner crowd, as long as you can get him to see that "If I could get 51% of the votes, MR and Mrs America, turn them all in!" is NOT the way to handle the problem, its a win.
 
Hard to use facts against emotion. We all know facts can be skewed and his emotions are real to him. I don't try to convert folks like him. I envy folks like him. He doesn't know that bad guys have guns now, have had them for a long time and will likely always have them. I hope he never learns otherwise, but if he does I'll have a place to start, if he survives.
 
Well ... I have a few things to say about the subjects being discussed.

I am a Libertarian who believes in less laws and governance, and more freedoms.

Therefore ... gun control of any kind is against my beliefs.

This quote rings true in this situation ....

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

In this quote Thomas Jefferson was emphasizing his beliefs in the possibility of this great country in becoming a Democracy instead of a Republic. The original signers of the Constitution ,and our founding fathers originally forged this country using Pure Republican ideas. Not the ideas of today's Republican party.
 
You are fighting a losing battle. People who harbor those types of attitudes are basing their ideas not on logic, but fear and prejudice, based on erroneous stereotypes and misinformation. You can use all manner of tactics (such as "the argument of the beard," analogies et. al.), but you will, in all likelihood, never get anywhere.
 
I guess I should add that one of the reasons I think this person is worth a little more effort is that I believe he is a ?person of influence? in the "progressive" community.

Besides, I do a lot of projects with him where we BS while we work. Someday BP is going to get this oil thing under control and then we are going to need something else to talk about.
 
Bottom line... it's a cultural problem. As a child, I had my .22 and 30/30 hanging on my bedroom wall in a AMERICAN black walnut gun rack I made in Junior High wood shop. I don't even think I would be allowed to make a gun rack in our zero tolerence schools in my state. I digress... all my friends had guns, we used to take them in many outings, and baclpacking in the Cascade mts. Never, did I ever hear of a gun related issue in or near my town. Not until many years later were guns ever an issue even in Seattle (nearest large city). People are the issue, not the instrument, period.
 
To the original poster, your friend might consider himself to be a conservative and you to be a radical. Maybe a neo-radical.
 
Well, he definitely considers himself to be a Liberal, or probably a progressive(thank god they have decided to stop stealing that term).
I won't say what he does for his day job b/c if I did, combined with my location which is public, it would be easy to identify the person. I doubt he would care as he is very open about his views, but I would hate to make that assumption. Suffice it to say it is a position that not many conservatives or Libertarians would be interested in.

I would guess he thinks I am quite radical. A large number of conseratives think I am quite radical for supporting the legalization of drugs(not marijuana, but all). Nobody wants me on their team:)
 
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