Very Disturbing News report on AZs Sgt. Haab making Citizens arrest

Desertdog

New member
The pro-illegals are trying everything they can to railroad Sgt. Haab. I think we need to start contacting our members o f congress or writing President Bush. Our enemies are not going to let uo at all.:mad:

Feds question release
of reservist Sgt. Haab
Immigration-rights group to file complaint with Organization of American States in D.C.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43955

Sgt. Patrick Haab, the U.S. Army reservist jailed for holding seven illegal aliens at gunpoint until Maricopa County, Arizona, sheriff's deputies arrived – and who was freed by that same county's district attorney after determining he had made a legal citizen's arrest – should have been prosecuted, say immigration rights activist and the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona.

The 24-year-old Haab was arrested and charged with seven counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon after drawing a pistol on a group of men he said charged him at an Interstate 8 rest stop. The men later were determined to be illegal aliens from Mexico.

After review of the charges, Maricopa County District Attorney Andrew Thomas determined that Haab's actions were legal under a Arizona law that authorizes citizens to make arrests if a felony or certain specified misdemeanors have been committed. The "coyote" smuggling the six other illegal immigrants committed a felony, Thomas said, as did his passengers who committed felonies when they conspired to illegally enter the U.S.


Thomas' legal reasoning, however, is being disputed by the Arizona office of the U.S. Attorney, who will only be prosecuting the smuggler on felony charges. Illegal entry to the U.S. is not a felony on the first incident nor one of the specified misdemeanors covered under Arizona's citizen's arrest law. None of the smuggler's illegal clients will be charged by the Feds.

"Individuals can't be charged with aiding and abetting their own smuggling," Sandy Raynor, public affairs officer for the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona, tells the Arizona Republic. "If the people being smuggled are only being transported, then there is no conspiracy. ... That is federal law."

"The only federal charge pending at this time is against the driver of the vehicle who is the alleged smuggler," adds Raynor.

Barnett Lotstein, special assistant to the Maricopa County attorney, defends his boss's decision not to prosecute and disputes the U.S. Attorney's interpretation of the law.

"When individuals by action agreed to be transported, or when they got into the vehicle to be transported, a crime of conspiracy was committed," Lotstein explains. "If they had never even gotten in the car, or had changed their minds ... they still would've been guilty of conspiracy."

Unlike police, who can only arrest when they have probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, citizens do not need probable cause – but they need to be right, or they can face prosecution after the fact.

Pointing a gun at someone without probable cause or the need for self-defense is a felony in Arizona, punishable by up to 15 years in prison.

Because conspiracy is a felony, Haab was covered by the citizen's arrest law, Thomas argues.

"If he had guessed wrong, he'd be prosecuted for a heck of a lot of offenses," Lotstein tells the East Valley Tribune. "He didn't beat the rap. He acted legally."

"That's not true," counters federal public defender Jon Sands of Thomas's charge of conspiracy to illegally enter the U.S. "Legally, that's just not the case."

According to Sands, immigrants who cross the border illegally usually become material witnesses against their smuggler.
 
Sgt. Haab

The news reported that any and all charges were dropped if there were any, he was considered making a citizen's arrest and the Sheriff of that County is happy.
 
Yes, the AZ authorities say he is free to go.

Where I am having a problem is the Feds screaming like they are.
Feds question releaseof reservist Sgt. Haab
Thomas' legal reasoning, however, is being disputed by the Arizona office of the U.S. Attorney, who will only be prosecuting the smuggler on felony charges.
"That's not true," counters federal public defender Jon Sands of Thomas's charge of conspiracy to illegally enter the U.S. "Legally, that's just not the case."
Then we have this item.
Immigration-rights group to file complaint with Organization of American States in D.C.

I don't trust the Feds, and yes I am getting upset with them over what seems to be their desire to hang this gut.
 
Sgt

Does anyone who believes the constitution is what makes the USA what it is really believe we should be in either the UN or the OAS, at all?
Don :barf:
 
citizens should be able to do something,the cops and the government sure as hell arent. illegals run the streets with impunity,they arent hiding in the shadows anymore, they have NOTHING to fear. :barf:
 
Thomas' legal reasoning, however, is being disputed by the Arizona office of the U.S. Attorney, who will only be prosecuting the smuggler on felony charges. Illegal entry to the U.S. is not a felony on the first incident nor one of the specified misdemeanors covered under Arizona's citizen's arrest law. None of the smuggler's illegal clients will be charged by the Feds. "Individuals can't be charged with aiding and abetting their own smuggling," Sandy Raynor, public affairs officer for the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona, tells the Arizona Republic. "If the people being smuggled are only being transported, then there is no conspiracy. ... That is federal law." "The only federal charge pending at this time is against the driver of the vehicle who is the alleged smuggler," adds Raynor.

There are five elements to a federal conspiracy charge (Title 18 U.S.C. 371):

Two or more persons…
Intentionally…
Agree…
To violate federal law or defraud the United States…and…
Commit an overt act in furtherance of the agreement.

All of the elements are met: Each illegal alien and the smuggler (first element) intentionally agreed to be smuggled across the border (second, third and fourth element) and actually did so (fifth element). The fact that some, or all, of the illegal aliens are not being charged with conspiracy shouldn’t change anything. I would point out that if the illegal aliens were charged as material witnesses against the smuggler, then they would provide proof of the conspiracy, regardless of whether or not they were charged with it. Sgt. Haab’s defense would be easier if all six illegal aliens were charged as witnesses, but chances are that at least some of them were not; no need for all six, and some of them were likely to be poor witnesses due to age, past criminal acts, etc. If Haab has already been released then I doubt he has anything else to worry about. The USDA isn’t going to charge him with violating AZ law, and the AZ DA has already dropped all charges. From a civil standpoint, he might be at risk, but I doubt it.
 
"Individuals can't be charged with aiding and abetting their own smuggling," Sandy Raynor, public affairs officer for the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona
I gotcha Sandy ... I see ... so if I and a few of my fellow United States citizens take a trip to Mexico City via Laredo - and just let ourselves back in over the wire "somewhere along the Arizona border" we have comitted no felony crime and can't be arrested right? ;)

According to Sands, immigrants who cross the border illegally usually become material witnesses against their smuggler.
Isn't that called a plea bargain? I mean, if I had committed no crime, why would I want to become a material witness against someone who had been a paid tour guide for me? Smugglers don't generally kidnap people to take them across the border - they enter into an agreement with them and get paid to do it.

I suppose they get around that by saying it was all an accident - a coincidence - that they happened to be in the same truck or trekking the same path at the same time when they all just happened to run into each other at the same spot on the border.

Eet was heeem! He maaaade mee go weeeze heem!

Ha! You follod mee eeeeeeere! I do no you ...

Eezzee heze falt!!
 
NOW we know why criminal immigrants never are arrested/deported.

Because the govn't feels they have commited no crime!
 
LAK,

The reasoning here isn't as you describe for the immigrants and conspiracy. The theory that you can't be charged with conspiracy in cases like this comes from a case concerning a violation of federal laws that bar transporting women across state lines for immoral purposes. The idea there was that the point of the law was to stop pimps from running women between states, in part, to protect the women. So even though a woman might go willingly with her pimp from one state to another, because the whole point of the law is to protect her from those pimps, she's not liable.

Same deal going on here with immigrants, it seems. Does that explain to you why your hypothetical trip might expose you to liability, but not the immigrants travelling with a body-smuggler?
 
I may have misread/misheard a new piece on this issue, but didn't the illegals rush Sgt. Haab? Carjacking is not an uncommon occurence after the "undocumented" are dropped off from what I've been told. Seems to me he acted primarily in self defense. With such a lopsided confrontation, I would be in fear for my life.

I think the county attorney went too light on the illegals. They should have been charged with something fairly serious and the whole thing would have been a non-issue.
 
I think the county attorney went too light on the illegals. They should have been charged with something fairly serious and the whole thing would have been a non-issue.
Charge the illegals? Matt, unfortunately, some time ago this great nation of ours fell through the rabbit hole, and charging illegals has become the exception, rather than the rule. On a good day, they are actually deported. On a not so good day, they are issued a summons to appear back in court in 30 days and released onto an American street. Many of course, do not make their court date. Surprise, surprise. Other times, law enforcement has actually transfered illegal aliens to another town or city, thus alliviating their own area of the problem, neverminding their neighbors or the nation as a whole.
 
3 cheers

Three cheers for a few people that use brains.......... first is the citizen whom had to brandish.....(show) he wasn't going to be beaten or killed by a rushing group of what he determined to be a threat..........I am sure I would have done the same.... and for the folks in the lower levels of government whom released him as soon as they sorted the whole story out......

Three BIG sneers and bo's for the Feds......... Big brother should let the local and state authority do what it is best at......... Serve and protect it's TAXPAYERS (citizens) :)
 
shootinstudent
Same deal going on here with immigrants, it seems. Does that explain to you why your hypothetical trip might expose you to liability, but not the immigrants travelling with a body-smuggler?
No. And the correct term is migrants; to immigrate one must be legally accepted as a resident of the country concerned.

Women (and children) are often trafficked as merchandise - all over the world - for immoral purposes, and sometimes not entirely of their own free will.

A person whose goal and intent is to illegally enter a foreign country makes a decision to leave his or her country, then chooses to, or not to, engage a "smuggler" to get them across covertly specifically in contravenance of the laws of that country undetected. An illegal migrant engages a smuggler of their own free will, and pays them.
 
The smuggler should be tried. The migrants deported.

This idea that you could be charged with felony conspiracy for misdemeanor acts is disturbing. I'd like to avoid going to jail for "Conspiracy to Commit Speeding" when I'm caught doing 10 over with 3 people in the car.


How much more crowded do we need the jails?
 
Hopefully the Freedom Friendly State of Arizona will rub the Feds nose in it by passing a Good Samaritan type law which prevents prosecution of citizens who detain illegal "migrants" (good distinction there, LAK) for the authorities.

Either that, or simply add the act to the list of permissable reasons to brandish.

Let the Feds choke on the Law of Unintended Consequences. They have no right exposing this US Citizen to Double Jeopardy when his home State found his actions warranted. Since when did the potential charge of "Aggravated Assault" become an issue for the Federales?

The fact that the Feds are pushing the issue will create greater sympathy for the acceptability of average citizens to take non-violent action to prevent illegals from crossing the border.
Rich
 
While it is disturbing that the fedgov thinks that they have ANY say into what happens to this man, the report on a whole is good news, not bad, that the county officials did what was obviously RIGHT in this situation and dropped the charges, though they should never have arrested or charged him to begin with.
 
LAK,

Well, that's your definition of "immigrant." I have seen no generally unacceptable use of the term "illegal immigrant", which would seem to be a contradiction in terms if what you say is correct.

Also:

A person whose goal and intent is to illegally enter a foreign country makes a decision to leave his or her country, then chooses to, or not to, engage a "smuggler" to get them across covertly specifically in contravenance of the laws of that country undetected. An illegal migrant engages a smuggler of their own free will, and pays them.

Well, that's your idea. It's clearly not the law, though.
 
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