Uvalde Shooting Spotlights Daniel Defense

Shoot, if I had an answer for that..., you are right gun laws work only for law abiding people.
Yes the Glock kit from China can be worth a decade in Club fed yet the bangers don't seem to care about that.

My concern is the ease that one can install a binary trigger, a brace, and a 100 round drum.
The above is all "perfectly legal" at the Fed level.
I need look back but a year or two to the harvest festival in Vegas. Yet the guns the nutball brought in with him were all "perfectly legal"

It should not be so easy and simple to make up a machine gun that is "perfectly legal" on the streets.
Please, what the heck is such a gun useful for outside the military?
 
Pathfinder45 said:
Yeah, there's no doubt that a total ban is the end game of extremists on that extreme... on the opposite extreme we have those that advocate for private ownership of tanks, F-15's, and whatever other weapons the individual desires and can afford, without restrictions. Nukes, anyone?
Those are the extremes. There's a lot of territory between the extremes. I am not an extremist. Extremism tends to give credence to opposite view by the very nature of extremism: It has to be opposed.
I don't "advocate" private ownership of F-15s, but I do agree with the position that a strict interpretation of the Constitution supports the view that we should be allowed to own them if we can afford them. Same thing for tanks. I cannot accept that recognizing a right enshrined in the Constitution is in any way "extremism." At the time of the drafting of the Constitution Tench Coxe, one of the founding fathers, wrote, "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an Americans."

What is a tank or an F-15 if not an "implement of the soldier"?

How about privateers? During the war of 1812, the United States commissioned privateers -- privately owned warships, armed with cannons -- to supplement the Navy. So why can't I own a frigate?

As to extremism being dangerous, if you substitute the word "zealot" for "extremist" I might agree with you. However, I offer for your consideration what Barry Goldwater said in his 1964 speech at the Republican national convention:

... extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.
...
And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
 
Ricklin said:
My concern is the ease that one can install a binary trigger, a brace, and a 100 round drum.
The above is all "perfectly legal" at the Fed level.
I need look back but a year or two to the harvest festival in Vegas. Yet the guns the nutball brought in with him were all "perfectly legal"

It should not be so easy and simple to make up a machine gun that is "perfectly legal" on the streets.
Please, what the heck is such a gun useful for outside the military?
I respectfully suggest that you're missing the point.

Machine guns were legal from the founding of the nation until 1935. Actually, they were still legal then, but subject to a tax. They didn't become [mostly] illegal until 1968. So was the Constitution being misinterpreted or mis-applied for 177 years? Machine guns are STILL legal to own, we're just not supposed to make new ones for private ownership.

Realistically, if wrist braces, bump stocks, binary triggers, and/or 100-round drum magazines were of any use at all to the military -- the military would be issuing them to the troops. But you don't see any of those things in the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, or the Marines.
 
Please, what the heck is such a gun useful for outside the military?

The question could be asked what good is the 2nd amendment outside of the military. One only has to look to why the 2nd was written and why it was important enough to be 2nd. The writers of the bill of rights had just liberated a country against a far greater power. The 2nd is to make sure we keep it.
 
I thought they redefined a machine gun so they could deal with the bumpstock already.

I know there are tanks, machine guns, fighter jets, flame throwers and stuff like that this n civilian ownership. You can buy m1 rifles and other surplus weapons there’s a bazillion former bolt action battle rifles in circulation. I own a FAL converted for civilian use. Heck, I think there’s been Mini14 style rifles used by some militaries.
The AR15 has never been a weapon of war, but some look similar and there are some common parts.
A select fire AR15, or any weapon capable of automatic fire are heavily regulated.

I’ve already mentioned this, the AR15 is one of the most common civilian firearms in the USA, it is the common use firearm of civilians. If we give any more compromises for AR15s, we will loose ALL common firearms.

If you want to keep your handguns and hunting weapons, you’ve got to keep the AR15.
 
I’ve already mentioned this, the AR15 is one of the most common civilian firearms in the USA, it is the common use firearm of civilians.

And have you ever wondered why that is, today??

I think the major reason is because the govt banned them (new ones) from 1994-2004. They became forbidden fruit, and so highly attractive to people who previously had little or no interest in them.

the AR-15 hit the civilian market in the early 60s and while sales were enough to keep civilian sales going, they were not terribly popular.

My 1974 Gun Digest shows the AR-15, only available in .223 listing for about $235, which was pretty spendy in those days, and at that time, .223 was not legal for deer hunting in the majority of states.

For comparison, in 1974 a Remington 742 listed for about $180, and could be had in a variety of deer legal calibers including .30-06. Legal for deer hunting everywhere that allowed rifles for deer hunting at that time.

Fast forward to the mid 80s and changes in the AR resulted in a generally more accurate rifle, and its modular contstuction was being exploited much more fully (primarily by aftermarket manufacturers) and it was being adapted to other calibers some of which were legal for deer in most of the country. SO despite their greater cost over more traditional deer rifles, the AR gained some in popularity.

Move to the late 80s and the beginning of the still ongoing mass shootings and the govt's interest in restricting and banning the type of rifles defined in the 94 AWB law as "assault weapons".

prior to that law's passing AR sales skyrocketed. Prices soared into outer space, people were asking, and GETTING double or more. I happily sold an AR clone that I paid $450 for, for $900 shortly before the ban was passed.

In 2004, When the 94 law sunset (because Congress did not pass its reauthorization) lots and lots of people who "missed out before" could now get new AR15s and lots of them went right out and did so, before another ban got passed. many times not because they were all that interested (at first) in the rifle, but because they wanted to get what the govt was trying to ban, while they could. As time went on, with more and more of them in private hands, their usefulness and popularity became firmly established in the private sector.

So, I think one of the big reasons the AR is so popular these days can be laid squarely at the feet of the anti-gun people (in and out of govt) who tried to ban them. And the news media for endlessly talking about their criminal misuse as if it were the only reason for owning one? Or the entertainment industry for showing us nearly everyone (heroes and villains) using them, constantly in "action" films?? In the early 60s about the only time you saw machineguns in movies were war movies (and the occasional gangster movie set during the era of Prohibition. Today, its tough to find an action movie WITHOUT full auto weapons being used in it.

One of my other pet peeves is people who use the THEIR concept of "need"
to decided what I should be allowed to have. So far, I have managed to suppress my gag reflex and restrain my impulse to slap some sense into them. Which doesn't stop me from sometimes replying "just who the hell are you to decide what I, or anyone else, needs??"

There are two levels to this as I see it, first being what human needs actually are. At the lowest level, you need enough food not to starve, and enough shelter not to die from exposure (heat or cold). That's it. Some people will argue that people need some level of companionship, but I don't think that is an individual need. Procreation for the survival of the species is a need, but not an individual one. Everything beyond that is a want or desire, and while we might feel they are needs, because they increase our quality of life, they arent needs for individual survival, as I see it.

The second part when someone says "nobody needs ....(whatever it is) to me, is about moral authority, and individual liberty.

I don't care if you have billions of dollars or claim to be speaking the will of the Almighty on high, you DON'T have the moral authority to decide what I need, unless I directly and personally give it to you.

One of my counter arguments when someone pulls the "need" card is to ask them how much money they make. We have minimum wage laws. That says to me the minimum wage is what the govt says we need to be paid. THEREFORE, any and every penny you make above that isn't something you "need" and therefore you shouldn't be allowed to have it.

They don't like that, even though its the exact same logic they are using about firearms....

as often said, its the bill of RIGHTS, not the bill of NEEDS....

(and, just to be clear on this, as well, the Bill of Rights grants no rights, it is a list of restrictions on the Federal govt regarding SOME (but not all) of our rights.

Thoughts??
 
I wasn’t interested in ARs for a long time, I often scoffed at the concept of owning one. In the past I was fairly trollish in my TFL posts, but a couple of years ago I decided to have better behavior on the last great online forum. I now concede that I have much to learn. So I read way more threads than I comment on. If I dug far enough back in my posts, I would find the stereotypical Fudd remarks about the AR15.
In 2014 I finally came around to the usefulness of the AR15 and now I have several, and the required box of AR15 parts.
The AWB did in fact bring me to AR15 ownership. You’re right Mr. AMP, seeing other’s AR15s, and the Availability of parts sold me.
 
Ricklin said:
"Please, what the heck is such a gun useful for outside the military?"

With respect, such a gun is useful whenever one's liberty is at risk, along with that of one's family and/or countrymen.

Your own sig line says "Freedom is not free".

Don't you wonder whether people living in Ukraine would say such guns are useful?

This is a relatively young country, some 246 years old, and we've already had one civil war. There is nothing that says we could not have another.

The Constitution was not put in place in a time of peace. It was written in a time of rebellion.

As Mark Twain put it: "History may not repeat itself, but it rhymes"...
 
The Constitution was not put in place in a time of peace. It was written in a time of rebellion.

This is not correct. We were in rebellion following the "shot heard round the world" in 1775. We officially declared our independence with a formal declaration in 1776. We were technically in rebellion (from the British point of view) until the end of the Revolutionary war in 1783. At that point, we were independent, and no longer Crown colonies in rebellion.

We operated as under the Articles of Confederation, until our current Constitution went into effect in 1789.

The US Constitution was written and put into effect in a time of peace. The Founders lived through and fought in the Revolution, and it was still "fresh" in their minds, but we were not in rebellion or at war when the Constitution was written or adopted.
 
44 AMP said:
This is not correct. We were in rebellion following the "shot heard round the world" in 1775. We officially declared our independence with a formal declaration in 1776. We were technically in rebellion (from the British point of view) until the end of the Revolutionary war in 1783. At that point, we were independent, and no longer Crown colonies in rebellion.

We operated as under the Articles of Confederation, until our current Constitution went into effect in 1789.
And the original Constitution did not include the Bill of Rights. The Constitution was ratified subject to the condition that a bill of rights would be added. The BOR was drafted as the first twelve proposed amendments to the then-new Constitution and was approved by the Congress on September 25, 1789. Two of the twelve were not ratified by the states. The ten amendments comprising what we know as the Bill of Rights were ratified by the states effective December 15, 1791.

The first of the twelve has never been ratified. The second proposed article in the BOR was finally ratified as the 27th amendment, on May 5, 1992.
 
First of all Thanks, y'all got me interested enough in the two proposed Amendments that were not ratified that I had to look them up. Found in https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-CONAN-2002/pdf/GPO-CONAN-2002.pdf Takes dome digging but it is in there.

Second, wrt post 126, you hit the nail squarely on the head.

I think that since .223 Rem was basically a varmint caliber (at the time, not considered 'suitable' for hunting e.g. deer), and the A2 was very difficult to scope effectively, not many people wanted an AR-15.

In 1993 I thought a rifle was blue steel with a walnut stock, and either a turnbolt or lever. Did not care for the AR-15, it reminded me of the Vietnam War, the turbulent '60s, riots, the West Side of Chicago in flames.

But talk of 'banning' semi-auto rifles induced me to buy an AR-15 at the gun show. Took it home, cleaned the factory oil out of it, lubed, took to the range and shot it (Winchester White Box Q3131), brought home, cleaned, and it sat.

I literally had no use for it except to have it in defiance of the upcoming ban. But it did shoot well, and didn't 'kick' much, and as poor a shot as I was/am it still made me look better than I was/am.

Then I read on the Internet that if one shot a Highpower or Garand Match, and sent the match bulletin to the CMP along with some paperwork, one could qualify to purchase an M1 Garand from them. So I did both, and have been shooting Highpower on and off since then. ("off" during the period when I could not see the front sight, until scopes became 'legal' for CMP/NRA competition, then "on").

Each panic brings fresh AR-15 buyers.

A friend and his brother, both long-time hunters with bolt guns, each bought an AR-15 during the last panic. My friend figured the recoil was mild enough, he let his nephew shoot his first deer with it; now it is the kid's deer rifle.

At this point I do not think I know anyone who has any kind of firearm and does *not* own an Ar-15.
 
At this point I do not think I know anyone who has any kind of firearm and does *not* own an Ar-15.

Now, you do. Me! :D

I don't currently own an AR, and have no plans to, ever, again.

I have owned them in the past, I have "built" them in the past, and I was MOS 45B20 Small Arms Repairman in the Army in the mid/later 70s and so was trained to not just use but also inspect and repair M16s.

I got rid of my last AR in the panic run up to the 94 AWB (and at a 100% profit :D) and have never bothered to replace them. I did keep my Mini-14 though...

This is no slam on the AR rifles, (though they DO have their drawbacks) its just my personal tastes. I've got dozens of other rifles that meet my wants as well or better than an AR can, and I'm just not that interested in AR's, anymore.

So, now you know someone who is into guns, but doesn't own an AR-15. ;)
 
I've owned three and as 44 AMP did sold two for a nice profit in the 1990s. I suppose everyone has their own reason for owning one. For those of us who do not hunt or have large areas to shoot in the AR is good choice. It is fun to shoot, reliable, accurate enough and unlike what the uninformed might say a more practical caliber than more powerful hunting rifles.
 
The most practical reason I know - besides self defense, which can be covered by something like a lever action in .357 mag, 30-30, or up - is to shoot CMP/NRA Highpower across-the-course.

Yes, an M1, M1A, 1903 Springfield, or purpose-built Match Rifle will work, but for Service Rifle class, with any hope to place well, an AR-15 is the only game in town.

As far as impractical reasons, mine is the same as I said before - to have a rifle suitable to 'a well regulated militia' that some dictatorial government folks think I do not "need" or should have.

Gotta stop here, no political rants allowed...

But 44 AMP - having had them, worked on them, assembled them, and being very familiar with them, you may not actually "have" one now but for a few dollars and couple hours you could have one any time should you choose to.
 
Gentlemen,

I stand corrected. My sentence ought to have read 'the Constitution was put into place during a time of peace immediately following a period of rebellion and a Revolutionary War'.

I suspect you may agree, however, with my overarching sentiment that one primary occasion on which such a firearm may be useful is whenever one's liberty may be put at risk.

Furthermore, Ukraine does illustrate that regardless of how unlikely an event may be to occur, occasionally extremely unlikely events occur nonetheless.

Best to all.
 
But 44 AMP - having had them, worked on them, assembled them, and being very familiar with them, you may not actually "have" one now but for a few dollars and couple hours you could have one any time should you choose to.

Absolutely, I could, but I no longer want one...its a personal matter. Been there, done that, not much interested in them anymore, for my PERSONAL use.

Absolutely and resolutely support our right to have them, or any other firearm we desire, for all legal uses.

I stand corrected. My sentence ought to have read 'the Constitution was put into place during a time of peace immediately following a period of rebellion and a Revolutionary War'.

I agree with that completely.

I suspect you may agree, however, with my overarching sentiment that one primary occasion on which such a firearm may be useful is whenever one's liberty may be put at risk.

I do agree with this also, but I would also add "one's personal safety" along with "one's liberty".

Not often mentioned today, but the concept of the armed citizen militia was to provide for the citizens defense against ALL threats. Not just the possible tyranny of an over-reaching government. Remember at the time, we had actual military units of two to three European powers in North America, within reach of our citizens homes and lives. AND, in addition to that we also had the indigenous peoples who were not always peaceful good neighbors, and also lawless men who happened to be Americans now. (outlaws/criminals)

SO the idea of each citizen being armed (or capable of being armed) with weapons essentially matching what was in military service, and preventing the govt from prohibiting that, (eventually codifed as the 2nd Amendment) made very, VERY good sense.

TO me, it still does.

being a bit of a pedant about language and history, it always gripes me when people refer to our gun rights as 2nd Amendment rights, or when they imply it is the 2nd Amendment that gives us our rights. Neither is correct. The 2nd Amendment (like most of the rest of the Bill of Rights) is a list of restrictions on the Federal Government, and that the list is not all inclusive. Nothing else.

Remember that those rights not specifically enumerated are reserved to the States, or the PEOPLE, respectively.
 
There are two levels to this as I see it, first being what human needs actually are. At the lowest level, you need enough food not to starve, and enough shelter not to die from exposure (heat or cold). That's it. Some people will argue that people need some level of companionship, but I don't think that is an individual need. Procreation for the survival of the species is a need, but not an individual one. Everything beyond that is a want or desire, and while we might feel they are needs, because they increase our quality of life, they arent needs for individual survival, as I see it.

I'll agree the basic needs are food,shelter,and clothing. But if you have those, someone who wants them may be willing to kill you to take them.

It CAN come to pass that any of us might need a fire extinguisher. It CAN come to pass that any of us MIGHT need to fight to preserve life.

The AR variants are not the worst choice should that need arise.

I believe in owning a battery charger ,a compressor,and some tools.

I think its a legit "Want" to own a weapon we have confidence in. Yes,for a fight.

Was a time we chose a shotgun or a Colt SAA or whatever seemed a good idea.Maybe an Iver 32!

The 2A is not about deer hunting. The AR's pretty much not about deer hunting, except folks figure out how to use what they have to get the job done. A lot of deer have been taken with 25-20's and 32-20's. For that matter,22 Rimfire. Folks figured out hunting deer with an AR. I'd still use my 257 AI Mexican Mauser. An AR is no advantage.

My part of the country,you are as likely to find an AR in a Ranch pickup as any other gun. The old lever 30-30 is no longer #1.

I'm near 70years old. None of my guns,including my AR's ,have ever been a threat to anyone. I've had to "Be Prepared" a few times. It passed with no drama.

I've never used any of my fire extinguishers either.

Funny,in my boat I get checked for having a fire extinguisher, and PFDs Seems like they should ask "Where is your gun?"
 
Industrial safety people talk about the "likelihood" and the "severity" of incidents. They say that a high-probability event with modest repercussions is not worth the resources to prepare for, same as a low-probability event with "severe" repercussions.

But a low-probability event with "catastrophic" repercussions is rated "inoperable" until a plan to mitigate the repercussions is in place.

I am not a mathematician and can't vouch for this guy's analysis, but he claims that, using the same math as he uses to predict 100-year floods, a catastrophic failure of our civilization is not out of the realm of possibility.

Here is the link: https://hwfo.substack.com/p/the-surprisingly-solid-mathematical?s=r

I do not know. I am old and too weak and deaf to 'take up arms' to defend Civilization, and will probably be dead before it hits the fan anyway.

But I still resent people who say that I "don't need" an AR-15 - I need it for the XC match tomorrow, and I want it around because I'm familiar with it, in case a mini-catastrophe puts me and my wife in danger.
 
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