Utah: Another Quick draw Mc'Taser, or...

H

hammer4nc

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Video link: http://youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc

Comment: With all the spate of recent tasing incidents lately, I perceive that LE's readiness to used the device as a primary resource, in situations where verbal de-escalation would suffice, will lead to yet more global restrictions on its use. Police forums discussing this incident (guess which ones :p), seem blissfully unaware of this possibility; and derive great entertainment from these videos. What's up with that?

Meanwhile, Taser International, attempting to defend their product and stock value, continues to tout "perfect safety record" (impartial as they are);).

Some mention is made that "no one knows how this video got released". Possibility of more charges heaped on the motorist for the ubiquitous "impeding an investigation" charge. That'll show'im!

Stay tuned for more on this holiday weekend (just a hunch).

Is it really illegal to ask what speed you're being accused of traveling, when issued a ticket? I would think that number would have been written on the summons; the officer steadfastly refuses to answer that question, for some mysterious reason. Another public relations triumph.
 
Tazers are getting out of hand... some police don't feel the need to explain anything, answer any question, or even TRY to deescalate situations. Instead you do what they tell you or you get tazed.

All he had to do was explain to the guy that signing a citation is not an admission of guilt and if he didn't sign the citation he would be placed under arrest... I bet the guy would have signed it. Let him know he can contest it in court and you aren't willing to argue on the side of the road. Give the guy the information needed to do the right thing and let him make a choice. Instead he didn't think he should be questioned and appeared to WANT to haul some guy arguing over a speeding ticket to jail. The guy wasn't irate or threatening at all.

Before tazing him, he never told him he was under arrest (or warn him he would be if he didn't sign the citation), he never read him the Miranda warning, and despite what he claimed later in the video... never warned the guy he was going to be tazed if he did not comply.

Maybe they should have a few less tacticool classes and a few more interpersonal communication and relations classes in their training.
 
I think tasers have their place, but I think of them as alternatives to night sticks or metal batons. They protect officers from having to get so close to use impact weapons, submission holds or other close contact. I'm no expert, but is that a rational statement of use?

For this situation, I wouldn't think use of a night stick would be permissible, hence, the use of a taser is impermissible.

I've never had any bad run-ins with the police, but this kind of stuff is terrible.
 
I couldn't agree with you more!

I think they should serve exactly the same purpose as a baton or nightstick. However since they (usually) don't leave any permanent injury SOME police officers seem to think they can replace taking time/effort to handle a dispute or other "situation" and just zap the heck out of them for even the most minor issues.

On the reverse side, I am sick of hearing people screaming "HE SHOULD HAVE JUST USED HIS TAZER" when an officer rightfully defends himself with lethal force.

Very seldom is the word "tazer" used in a news article that doesn't tick me off for one of those two reasons. I'm sure there are many appropriate uses of tazers that just don't make the news (or youtube), but this stuff does seem to be happening more often.
 
Contempt of cop. He never did answer the questions: How fast was I going? and, What am I under arrest for? To protect and serve and humiliate for asking questions.
 
I watched about 4 minutes of the video and saw enough. What was that officer supposed to do? Get into a high speed chase, wrestle the guy to cuff him? It seems to me that the guy must have been coming up on the officer pretty fast as he pulled over (maybe blocking the 40 MPH sign, maybe not) and he pulled over quickly. Maybe I'm just a moron, but the side of the road is not the place to argue a traffic ticket.
 
RKJ: I agree with you. The shoulder of a busy road with cars flying by is no place to argue or waste time.

Simply, I don't know what the best way to handle this would have been.

Clearly, the guy receiving the ticket was not pleased, and not entirely cooperative (he didn't seem to want to show his license at the beginning - every time I get pulled over I've had them ready before the officer gets out of his car). I'd agree the officer had no reason to go back and find the sign, simply to tell him that it was there.

However, I would think the officer could simply say, "You can either the sign ticket or not, but if not, then I'll have to arrest you. So why don't you just sign it and contest it later."

Instead, the officer seemed insulted at lack of cooperation (which I'm guessing would hardly be unique in that line of work), and let the situation get out of control by letting the guy walk around outside the car near traffic.

I'm no cop, I'm no expert and I'm sure many fine officers could come up with better ways to handle this, or poke holes in my armchair quarterbacking - all I know is I don't like the way this one officer handled it.
 
The guy had his kid and pregnant wife in the car... not exactly a high risk of engaging in a car chase.

You don't have to escalate everything to force. As I said earlier, if he merely answered the guy's question and explained why he was being asked to sign the ticket and what would happen if he didn't, I bet the guy would have signed the stupid citation. Signing a citation is basically your way of posting bail, its not an admission of guilt, the alternative is being taken into custody. He was arrested for not signing the citation, and the cop never even told him that. In fact, when asked, instead of explaining it to the guy, the cop just said "because you didn't follow my orders".

The attitude of "I don't have to explain anything, just do as I say" is ridiculous. They are public servants and the taxpayers have a right to be treated with respect and have the situation explained to them when they get pulled over for speeding.
 
I think it was appropriate. Every knows (or should know) that by signing the ticket, you are promising to appear in court, or otherwise take car of the ticket, and refusing to sign it will get you arrested.

The man insists that he cannot get a ticket unless the cop retraces his steps and shows him the speed limit sign. The cop then gave the man a LAWFUL order to place his hands behind his back. The guy responds with "What's your problem?" and then moves to get back in his vehicle. A vehicle he could escape in, or retrieve a weapon from. At the same time, he begins reaching in his right front pocket. He was tased. Big deal. Obey lawful orders (which this was) or get arrested.

Then, this road lawyer insists that the Cop can't arrest him unless he is read his rights.

If you don't like the law, lobby your legislature to change it, or fight it in court. Arguing with the cop enforcing it will not net you a win.
 
Like everyone else, I'm not condoning his actions of arguing with the cop...

I'm just saying it would have been incredibly easy for the cop to have explained the situation to him, gotten the citation signed, and he never would have had to even get out of the car. The guy was obviously upset and uncooperative, but he wasn't acting like an unreasonable crazy person. Even if the officer didn't explain anything but simply said "Sign this or you will be placed under arrest", I bet the guy would have.

and no, not everyone understands what that signature is, nor what the alternative is... I bet the majority of people DON'T.

While tazing him might have seemed like the best option to the cop, he had numerous other ways to resolve the problem before it ever got that far. The guy asked how fast he was clocked, no answer... asked why he was under arrest, no answer... asked to be read the Miranda warning, nothing.

I have argued with a cop over a speeding ticket and was probably ruder than I should have been, but at least the cop answered my questions, that was enough for me. I wasn't necessarily happy with the answers, but he answered them.
 
The guy had his kid and pregnant wife in the car... not exactly a high risk of engaging in a car chase.
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How is the officer supposed to know this?


If a police officer draws any weapon on you, that's a good sign that you are doing something wrong. The driver seemed to have a 'he has to prove what I did wrong' attitude... the place for that is court not beside the road with a taser pointed at you.
 
Sorry, I side with the cops more than not, but I think this one was just retarded.

He was pissed the guy wasn't groveling at his feet, so instead of telling him his options (sign or get arrested), he decided to get the guy out of the car and start barking orders at him to put his hands behind his back without ever telling him he was under arrest or why.

I agree I wouldn't argue with a cop when they are telling me to put my hands behind my back, but that isn't my argument here... my argument is the cop never needed to escalate this to him getting out of the car. He was obviously pissed the guy was uncooperative and verbally argumentative.

The officer obviously had a "I dont' have to explain anything to anyone" attitude.
 
For the record, this incident took place a couple months ago, on Sept. 14. The video just made its way to the internet, possibly released by the motorist.

In many jurisdictions, refusal to sign a ticket is not automatically an arrestable offense. One news account indicates arresting a motorist for not signing is discretionary in Utah; perhaps some Utah residents can confirm or deny this. If it was discretionary, anyone care to speak to the underlying facts which signalled trooper Gardner that Massey had to go to jail? From my perspective, a clean-cut husband (whose license obviously just came back clean), w/ wife and small child, driving a newer SUV; would be a good bet to appear in court?

From viewing the video: trooper Gardner immediately took umbrage when his request for papers was met with a question rather than immediate compliance. Rather than answer the question about speed, he simply repeated the question "like now!" after 5 seconds. About 1 minute of garbled discussion about the stop ended when Gardner said OK! and went back to the squad with papers. After returning with the ticket, once again, 5 seconds elapsed between refusal of signature, and "out of the car" command (2.23). Notice, Gardner's action to put the ticket book on the front bumper, followed by the command "turn around and put your hands behing your back!" (2.28) while simultaneously drawing the taser. Repeated the command and fired taser at (2.37). A reasonable person could conclude that Gardner decided Massey was going to jail at the first sign of anything but strict obedience to his commands = zero tolerance for "contempt of cop".

Some may conclude this was a perfectly good contact. For those, I would highlight that Utah has already dropped all charges against Massey (except for the speeding charge). Secondly, I'd invite everyone to spend a few minutes sampling the reader comments section at the bottom of the news stories.:p

Maybe this will be a win-win situation! Trooper Gardner will be exonerated and be forever famous; motorist Massey will be able to send his young child through college on the settlement received from the Utah taxpayers! What could be better than that!:D

Uhm, except for the publics' trust in law enforcement?? That, we might have to work on...
 
You don't have to escalate everything to force. As I said earlier, if he merely answered the guy's question and explained why he was being asked to sign the ticket and what would happen if he didn't, I bet the guy would have signed the stupid citation. Signing a citation is basically your way of posting bail, its not an admission of guilt, the alternative is being taken into custody. He was arrested for not signing the citation, and the cop never even told him that. In fact, when asked, instead of explaining it to the guy, the cop just said "because you didn't follow my orders".
Click to expand...

I remember many many moons ago having pretty much this exact conversation with a cop. He explained this in a clear fashion, I signed the ticket, I argued later (and it was overturned). Pretty easy.

I guess you could argue that everybody should already know these things, but not everybody does.

EDIT: Not saying this is the case here (though I suppose we could argue it), not saying this describes all police officers, but there do seem to exist some officers whose primary concern is establishing their authority rather than peacefully resolving the situation.
 
hate to sound like a jerk, but on this one I'm coming down on the side of the trooper.

When I was a teenager, I got pulled over by a small town cop. I came to a complete stop at a stop sign. I had plenty of space, no problem. Speed limit was 25 there, he was couple hundred yards away. So I pulled out.
Well he zoomed up behind me, guy was actually doing more like 55, not 25. Hey so I misjudged his speed, I was still kind of a new driver. Anyhow he tailgated me to the edge of his jurisdiction, then pulled me over. He gave me a ticket.

For going thru the stop sign.

He completely fabricated the stop sign bit. He was just angry that I got in his way when he was speeding. So he ticketed me.

But I didn't argue with him then and there. What would have been the use? Once that ticket gets written, the only way it's gonna get un-written is in court.

Anyway yes it would have been nice if the Utah patrolman had told the guy he could get arrested for not signing the citation, but it seems to me Mr. SUV was a little testy from the get go. Plus I'd rather get tasered than shot or nightsticked.
 
I have a bit of a heavy foot, myself, and I have missed speed limits signs which have changed to a lower speed. I've missed them at night, in a severe fog, and along a busy, noisy interstate highway.

I have even been stopped on a customized Harley.

Ans while I requested info from the Trooper, I always got a polite answer. And yes, I needed info as to my signature on a ticket--even a warning ticket.

But I was polite. The place for open dispute is in the courtroom--and I went. Yes, I was found guilty once, but more often I got a reduction in fine or the number of points.

Frankly, I thought the cop was a bit trigger happy, myself. And for the sake of providing him with further training in communicating his position with a speeder, I hope the guy was investigated.

My enumerated rights are not in place to provide a Trooper with cushy employment. In fact, my rights have nothing to do with his job at all. If he cannot succeed in doing his job without pushing the line, perhaps he should seek something he can handle in food service.
 
Besides it being silly to argue with the officer alongside the road, you don't get to tell him that you're going back down the highway before signing the ticket.

I lost count of the number of times the motorist asked what the officer thought his speed was. The officer never placed him under arrest prior to tasing either. He just said "Turn around and put your hands behind your back". It's obvious that Mr. SUV is intent on the signage question and surprised by the order. Elapsed time is just under 5 seconds.

This could all have been avoided if the officer clearly articulated what the citation was about, the speed for which he was citing the driver, followed by "Signing this citation is only a promise to appear, not an admission of guilt. Press hard, there's four copies."

Removing the subject from the vehicle was not apparently necessary but once he did, the officer violated several safety rules (the alert reader should spot them). Again, the officer could have said "I didn't want to say this in front of your wife, but you need to be quiet and listen to me... " then repeat the "it's only a promise to appear" script, explain to him that he is welcome to go back and photograph all the signs for his appearance in court after he signs the ticket.

(and yes, I would have told him to keep his hands out of his pockets too).

Yes, Mr. SUV did some things wrong, but the officer lost control of the situation, escalated force unnecessarily and misrepresented the situation to the other officers.
 
I'm with BillCA.

This could all have been avoided if the officer clearly articulated what the citation was about, the speed for which he was citing the driver, followed by "Signing this citation is only a promise to appear, not an admission of guilt. Press hard, there's four copies."
Click to expand...

Seriously. This is the biggest thing. As I said, I had this very conversation at roadside once. I'd even wager that while I'm generally rather polite when dealing with the police, I was less so in this situation...being cited for something I wasn't guilty of does that.

The officer in my situation was very clear, yet at the same time quite...authoritative...in explaining to me that my signature was not an admission of guilt, but simply a promise to pay or appear. Invited me to take a moment to read the paperwork before signing to verify that that's what it said. I signed, I appeared, it turned out the judge agreed with me. Oh, and I didn't get tasered.

Besides it being silly to argue with the officer alongside the road, you don't get to tell him that you're going back down the highway before signing the ticket.
Click to expand...

This is very true, and I did find it amusing that the driver thought this was actually ever going to happen. Yeah, no. But again, I'd say this is where the officer needs to simply explain (again) that signing is not an admission of guilt and he's free to go check out the sign (or whatever) at his leisure. Take pictures, bring it to court, and if he's right then things will be taken care of there. Then maybe explain that Option B is to be arrested right here and now. And that we won't be driving by this sign on the way to jail, either. ;)
 
I live where this happened. My little shooting range is about 200 yards further up the road from that spot.
There is more to this story. First off, the normal speed limit is 65MPH. The very short construction zone has no warning signs of a lower speed limit ahead. Instead of a 10MPH drop down before the 40 zone, it just drops all the way down to 40. And the signs in both directions are not at the beginning of the zone... they are right about in the middle. Meaning it's a blatant speed trap and not ticketable. You take this to court, they will have to drop it.
The Trooper made so many mistakes in regards to officer safety that it isn't even funny. One thing that can come of this... this makes for a good training video for how not to FUBAR a traffic stop.
Yes, the driver was a punk, but the Trooper could have done a whole lot better according to the video.
Now, here's the kicker. The video is heavily edited. We don't know what the whole story is. The driver got the video from the UHP and cleaned it up and posted it on YouTube.
While the natural reaction is to be pissed... I sure as heck was... it's time to look at it objectively, and understand there is more to the story that we wont know for some time.
Also, in the State of Utah, the Trooper could have wrote "Refused to Sign", handed the driver the ticket anyways. If the Driver didn't go to court or pay the fine, bench warrants and suspensions would have followed forcing the driver to step up.
 
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