USMC Tng. and Police Academy Tng.

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SWAT Teams?

I general I would disagree with Walter's comments that SWAT Teams somehow represent police training gone bad.

However, I don't live where you live, and I don't know how SWAT Teams where you live are selected, trained, or employed or what kind of operational history they have . . .

In regards to police training, I am a graduate of the Law Enforcement Specialist course at the USAF Security Police Academy, as well as the regular police academy in my state. I also taught firearms at the local regional police academy for 10 years.

I think organization and structure, having performance standards and holding people responsible for their performance is critical in training entry-level personnel in law enforcement. Inducing stress just for the sake of stress doesn't accomplish much in and of itself. Inducing stress in testing at the end of an Academy process can be beneficial in determining who can perform and who cannot, provided that the scenarios are properly designed and the evaluation properly conducted.

The function of military basic training is somewhat different than that of training police officers at the academy level. There are certain aspects that are very similar, but many that are significantly different.
 
dude, spade. from one army guy to another. sit down and stfu. this topic should not even had been started. it's a flame fest waiting to boil over. my brother was a marine. i know what he went through, even after basic. hell, i know what i went through in my basic.

it's called conditioning. if they scream at you enough, at some point your going to learn to control your nerves and become calm in a high stress situation. and it must work, considering the marines are one hell of a force to be reckoned with.

around here, all the PD candidates are un-disciplined, unfit (athletically) morons. half of them don't know firearm safety from their left shoe. the other half have never even handled a firearm. a lot of them are quite, with no command presence around them. thier TI's yell at them, and abuse them to make them learn these things. can you honestly say that if someone spoke to you in a calm, clear manor and was completely polite about your training... that you would be able to order someone to the ground, make someone wet themselves while you are writing them a ticket? if they asked you to please try your hardest at running 3 miles every morning that you would be able to do it?

come on braugh. you said you went through basic... where? at relaxin jackson?
 
Jeff22 I general I would disagree with Walter's comments that SWAT Teams somehow represent police training gone bad.
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Jeff22, with your background I'm not at all surprised you disagree with my
comments about SWAT teams. I bet 90% of this forum disagree with my
idea about that. But that doesn't change my opinion of SWAT teams.

SWAT teams, in my humble opinion, are nothing more than an "end-around"
the "Posse Comitatus Act" which forbids the U.S. military from being used as
law enforcement against civilians, in most cases. There are exceptions to
that law, of course, but not many. So again, in my opinion, the "powers-
that-be" created SWAT teams, civilian law-enforcement agents trained in
dynamic military operations, "assault" style. To be used against civilian
American citizens. And yes, police officers are technically "civilians",
I don't care what they believe their status is. If you aren't in the U.S.
Military, you ARE a civilian.

That's why I believe SWAT teams are not only wrong, but probably illegal.

I'm no "Cop Hater", I support law enforcement, for the most part. I just
don't believe in the assault-style tactics of the SWAT teams.

I know the attached pic isn't a SWAT team, but it represents the SWAT
mentality to me.

Walter
 

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"The yelling and screaming was basically for shock value and to quickly establish command and control.

It also only lasted a few days.
After a few days the Drill Sgt's no longer yelled and screamed.
They were more like father figures.
The yelling and screaming and "in you face" stuff is really just a peformance for the first day or so for the newbies."

It weeded out a few people on the first few days, it's a deciding factor in who REALLY wants to be here. They still yelled and screamed just not like the first couple days or else I got used to it :confused: By the time my 6month O.S.U.T. was finished just under 50% had "washed out" plus a few that found loopholes, flat feet, other b.s. etc.

osut for you non army personnel and remfs, is one station unit training, you go straight from basic into job training, it's basically about 6 months of basic depending on your job but they only do it for infantry, artillery and tankers.
 
As a former policeman, I believe SWAT teams are necessary. When you take down a drug house that is known to contain weapons in the arms of known felons, how else could you do it? In hostage situations, this type of expert is needed. I've been at the scene of many a barricaded suspect and was happy when the SWAT team showed up and took over. The SWAT teams prevent a lot of death by their way of handling these situations even saving the lives of felons who are ready to shoot it out.

One point I was thinking about when I started this thread was how our troops in Iraq are now used as policemen on the streets. This puts them in a job they were not trained for. Like stated above, our military people were trained to fight and accomplish a mission, take the hiss so to speak. Now they are walking the streets as human targets for snipers, something only the Iraqi Police should be doing.
 
so none of the MPs are trained as police officers? and correct me if i'm wrong, but the MPs are the ones running the training camps over there. I agree that the Iraqies need to get their democratic government together, and they are taking a tad to long to do it, but someone needs to be there to help them. you have to realize that democracy is a new concept to them. they've been a dictatorship for several decades. if we pull out now, it's going to be just like serbia. mass genocide and civil war. that's why we are there really, to prevent that from happening.

we're not just training thier police forces either, we're training thier military. but that's completely off topic from your OP. your OP was about police training being like military boot camp. which... it should be, as posted above.
 
What training camps are you talking about? Most military training is being done by MiTTs (Military Transition Teams). The personnel from these teams are mostly combat arms officers and SNCOs with a few specialist (comm, motor-T and logistics). The police are being trained by the PiTTs (Police Transition Teams) they too are similarly structure as the MiTT. The PiTTs have IPLOs (International Police Liaison Officers), contractors who are normally retired police that advise the PiTTs and their Iraqi counterparts on police activity.


I heard some of the activated reservist who were LEO on the civilian life complaining that the IPLOs were mostly from small towns and the Southern US, vice "big city cops" and may not be qualified for the task at hand. I however was not in a place to validate this claim one or the other.
 
The other day I saw films on Marine Corp. Boot Camp. There were DIs running around screaming constantly looking like a bunch of idiots. You could not even tell what the were yelling. in my opinion this type of supervision accomplishes nothing. You want leadership, obediace to orders, and a foot soldier who can think on his feet, not some scarred rabbit. I was in the Army and don't remember anything comming close to the scream fest I heard in the USMC. These guys didn't learn a thing from what I saw. I guess they were trying to turn them into warriors or killers but I couldn't tell it .
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it is obvious you have no idea what your talking about. the techniques your saying are stupid are meant to instill attention to detain preforming under stress learning under stress identifying stress and avoiding it avoiding distraction etc etc etc

if you actually went thru recruit training you would see the transformation in the recruits and DI. they dont end up the best worriers in the world by worrying about feelings or uneducated opinions. they have been training recruits for a very long time. it must be working.

training a police officer and worrier are two vastly different things. they have some things in common but their core jobs are completely different and thus their training is different.

just make sure you go to the navy or air force if you ever join the service.



just kidding.
 
I am currently beginning week 9 of a 32 week police academy. I have never been in the military. The 1st week of the academy there was alot of scream, alot of punishment, and alot of lessons learned. Usually screaming and physical punishment called "Memory Enhancers" go hand in hand. You may not understand the reasons for the punishment at the time, but after the dust has settled and the pain subsided the istructors tell you why we did what we did. Watching your brothers back is the lesson most often preached and rightly so.

Its funny how much I have changed in 8 weeks. I often think how long it would have taken me to learn some of the lessons if they staff was more lienient on use. I also find myself bonding with some of the guys in the academy much faster than I would otherwise. And during our "Memory Enhancer" routine you start to see how much agony someone you have only known for 8 weeks is willing to go through for your sake. We will gladly take on more of a burden to make sure our brother doesn't have to fall out of formation.

I don't know if this police academy equals the difficulty of Marine Boot Camp, but I've heard several cadets with prior military experience say its close. Though I have no right to say Semper Fi, I can tell all the Marines and members of all other branches of the armed forces that you will never know the gratitude I have for your service and that I think of the sacrificed made every day.
 
I agree there are vast differences between the duties of a soldier and a policeman. I would imagine, though, that the stress induced upon a person whose duty requires them to take a step forward while knowing that could well be their last step in this life, is similar.

How do you suppose you get a person to willingly take that step? A sensible man just wouldn't do it, even if you could stand beside him and offer him more and more money to take it, yet we have daily examples of soldiers and policemen, all very sensible people, repeatedly taking that step

High stress training, in my experience from both army and police academy basic, tends to bond one to the group with ties closer than that of some family members. Those ties begin with only the training group but expand to include the entire outfit, whether civilian or military. You take the step I mentioned earlier, because you love your brother -in-arms and if you don't take it, he will have to.

I never served in combat with the military. I have though, as a civilian policeman, experienced the stress I mentioned above on numerous occasions, and the factor which was foremost in my mind at the time was how the guys would be disappointed in me if I wimped out. You people with military combat experience will be able to tell me if your motivations were similar or not.

Steve
 
Spade,

I was in the Army also, but my first service was USMC than the Army, so I didn't attend Army Basic. In the Army I completed 5 jump schools, Ranger school and a bunch of other infantry type schools. Between the USMC and the USA, I completed a total of about 19 including advanced marksmanship and coaching. This was in the 50's and 60's to include Viet Nam as a Ranger in rifle platoon in the 173d Airborne Bde. I was also an instructor at the Army Ranger School as well as the 101st Airborne Div. Recondo School. And later, I went through a police academy. I was active in the martial arts until age 67, in fact I am starting back again. So from all of this I am able to say the basic training you received in the Army wasn't DIDDLY.


RANGERS LEAD THE WAY
 
We could do a lot better in trainning both groups.
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It seems that comment has gotten lost in all the GI Joe chest-thumping. He’s right. Now, I’m not a Marine, but I was a DI in the Army, and I’ve worked at the police academy, and assorted other spiffy things. The reason we are regularly changing and modifying training is to provide better training. We can do better. We do suggest changes to improve the training regime, witness the development of “the crucible” for example. And yes, we could do a lot better in training for both groups. But training costs time and money, so we do a balancing act that is a fight between "training better" and "costs more."

Regarding LE training, study after study has shown that military-style “boot camp” training is not the best way to produce good officers, and in fact it tends to create a number of problems for LE in the long run. Modern training focusing more on an academic model and adult learning techniques has been shown over and over to produce a much better LE officer. But it costs a lot more in time, money, adn other resources. The military model has one overwhelming advantage, it is much cheaper than the professional model, and that is why it is so popular in so many places.
 
I saw a show where a Doctor was discussing the permanent damage to vocal chords for USMC DI's and how their voices change over time. Ultimately ending up always hoarse (sp?)

If it's bad enough they lose their voice for long periods of time the vocal chords begin to swell and bleed and the scar tissue creates irrepreable damage.
 
Spade, As a former Police officer, I have no use for the military mindset that brought us SWAT teams. Police investigate, then make arrests. "No knock" entry is reminiscent of the Gestapo. My father fought against the Nazis and I fought against other totalitarian regimes. I don't like to see their tactics used in this "free" country.

If the job is too dangerous for you without violating the Constitution, then find other work. It takes bravery to restrain yourself in the face of lawbreakers and courage to do so even with the restrictions of the Constitution.

As far as Boot camp, Police academies should be teaching the law and proper enforcement techniques. Weapons training is incidental to Law Enforcement. Cops are not soldiers, and should not have a military mindset.

The Marines are a fine body of men who have defended this country from the beginning, and their training is tough. Because they have to be tough to accomplish their mission. Do you think that you can get a teenager to charge a machine gun position without discipline? Or keep himself conditioned and clean so that he is able to fulfill a mission? Marines are deservedly proud of their traditions because they are a magnificent fighting force. Sharp, honed, disciplined, trained and willing to go in harm's way for their country. I am not a Marine, but I wish I were. Army, Navy, Coast Guard , Police. By the time I had done all of that I was too old to be a Marine, but I respect them as the fine example of America they are.:)

Bentrod, Airborne, Rangers lead the way.( Recon,11th Airborne div.)
 
A soldier needs to be able to think clearly when he is mentally fatigued, physically fatigued, deprived of sleep and deprived of food/water. This is a common condition in any combat environment where sleep and food is a luxury.

A police officer will most likely never see the conditions that a solider sees on the battlefield. However, the officer's initial training is actually a part of the selection process. A military style training will quickly weed out those who are not qualified for the job.

If you were going to place a man in your community with a pistol, shotgun and arrest powers, wouldnt you want the man to have been thoroughly vetted through a military style training? That type of training will weed out anyone who is not psychologically fit or not disciplined enough for that type of work.

When I went through basic training in the Army, there were guys who seemed like nice intelligent guys when we all first got there. However, as time progressed, there were a few of these nice intelligent guys who were found not to be psychologically fit for the job. This type of stress training is essential to finding out who can walk the tight rope and who cant.
 
The closest portrayal I've seen of Parris Island was in the movie "Full Metal Jacket". It was very accurate. Back when I was an undergrad there (early 1969), we were told that there was a group of Army types and civilians trying to analyze how and why basic training at PISC was so effective. I don't know what they learned, however our DIs made sure to go through their raunchiest "routines" when we were near them. :D
 
To those who critisize the Marines way of training. Clearly you know not about what you speak. Marines have a proud history of taking on this countries toughtest battles and winning. Do they yell and scream. you bet they do. is it for a reason? you bet. When a Marine goes into combat he goes ready to take care of business. I would not trade my training in the Corps for anything. Like a General for the Chinese army said in Korea. I would rather take on a brigade of anything than take on a battalion of those god damn Marines. I would rather get in a gunfight with a Marine at my side than just about any cop you can show me. THey put you under extreme stress to teach you how to deal wth stress and they do it well. When i was in the gulf in 91 Marines were assigned with breaching the Saddam wall and taking Kuwait city. Most of that would be house to house fighting. Any idea as to why??. When Kafji fell and several Marines caught behind in teh city did they crawl in a hole and hide?? Hell no they called in arty on the Iraqi's and even though there were only a few of them they fought on and kicked ass. There was a reason they sent the Marines in to the islands in the Pacific in WWII. Yes training is tough and hard but thats why we are the proud and the few.
Semper Fi
 
NJtrigger, no I don't want my fellow police officers to have a military mindset. They are police not military. They know the law and enforce the law, not combat. I don't like the emphasis on SWAT and "dynamic entry" . That's not what this country is about.

In the current emphasis on "terrorist war", we are losing sight of the most important thing we have to protect. I mean the Constitution of the United States. If we weaken that, we have lost the war on terrorism or any other war. The constitution is the only thing that makes this the greatest country in the world. Without it we could be France or Germany. Probably ok countries, but not the United States of America.

I was born a free man, and I will die the same way. I hope the rest of you feel the same.:)
 
A military style training will quickly weed out those who are not qualified for the job.
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I’m sorry, but that is simply not true. I’ve encountered more than one who got through the military style academy and wasn’t a good officer, and I’ve seen a few who washed out of a military style academy who have gone on to be good officers at agencies with academy model training.
If you were going to place a man in your community with a pistol, shotgun and arrest powers, wouldnt you want the man to have been thoroughly vetted through a military style training?
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No. I would disagree with the idea that somehow they are thoroughly vetted because they went through the military style academy, or that they need such training to become vetted.
That type of training will weed out anyone who is not psychologically fit or not disciplined enough for that type of work.
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Again, sorry, but that is simply not correct. In fact, there is a fairly good body of research indicating that the academy model training is better at producing the "good" officer than the military type academy.
 
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