using .45 pistol bullets in .45/70 rifle

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dgang

New member
Recently read of a fellow using .45 pistol dies to neck down .45/70 brass so he could use 230 gr. .452 bullets for a reduced load in his .45/70 rifle.
Does anybody have any experience doing this?
What kind of powder, amount of powder,expected velocity, accuracy etc. can be expected?
Thanks in advance,dgang.
 
I never did that when I had my 45-70. The 45acp bullets are undersized by .5-.6 thousanths of an inch. The 47-70 has a .457 bore. And you can buy 300gr 457 bullets so why mess with 230gr bullets? Why does everyone seem to want to shoot stuff in their guns that weren't designed for them? Like 32acp in a 32 caliber revolver that uses rimmed ammo?
 
Why does everyone seem to want to shoot stuff in their guns that weren't designed for them? Like 32acp in a 32 caliber revolver that uses rimmed ammo?
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I won't pretend to speak for others but for myself... being a hobbyist handloader makes these ideas fun and interesting little projects. Once "safety" is addressed properly (always the #1 for me), the rest is just details. Motivation doesn't need to go far beyond "this sounds like fun, let's see how well it works?"

In a nutshell, that's where I am coming from.

.32 ACP in .32 cal revolver using rimmed ammo? That sounds like something that a lot of .327 Federal guys try... and yes, I have also. I don't care for that particular one because the semi-rimmed .32 ACP extracts/ejects really poorly and it's a hassle. Does it fire, is it safe? Totally YES on both counts.

In a related project...
I have (quite successfully!) used 123gr plated rifle bullets wholly designed for the AK-47/SKS 7.62x39 round... in my .327 Federal loads. Yep, and I've detailed the exact process quite well in a thread in the handloading area of this site.

Why? Well, I could make a list, but instead, I'll just say that it was SAFE (still is) and I wanted to, and it WORKS. :D
 
Oops, sorry OP, I don't have specific experience in making the .45cal pistol bullets work in .45-70. But I have toyed with similar projects and I am sure your answers are out there. I look forward to hearing your progress and sorry I couldn't help. But definitely... keep exploring and trying new things. :cool:
 
I have never tried it, but it might not be a good idea, at least for an antique gun and jacketed bullets. With soft cast lead bullets, I don't see any problem.

The .32 ACP in a .32 revolver can be more of a problem, since the auto pistol cartridge is a lot higher pressure than the black powder rounds most .32 revolvers were made for.

Jim
 
ratshooter

Rat shooter: I never did that when I had my 45-70. The 45acp bullets are undersized by .5-.6 thousanths of an inch. The 47-70 has a .457 bore. And you can buy 300gr 457 bullets so why mess with 230gr bullets?

Ratshooter: The Ballard cut rifling in my 1995GG should stabilize an undersized pistol bullet and at 230 gr. I should be able to achieve 2000-2100 fps with 85% of max powder load for a 300 gr. bullet. Costs less and less recoil, and I enjoy mucking about. dgang
 
Could the bore get damaged by a possible hot jet of gas escaping past the bullet? Also wouldn't the twist over stabilize such a short bullet?
 
The Trapdoor springfield should only be shot using lead cast bullets, jacketed bullets can cause the barrel to wear out faster. 405gr lead bullet over a case of blackpowder is what a trapdoor loves to be fed.
 
Being undersized so much the pistol bullet will not shoot worth a squat, and it may damage your bore. I'm guessing you have a marlin 45-70 lever action based on you mentioning it has Ballard rifling.

This is just not a good idea, cast some true caliber bullets or buy some. I wouldn't attempt this idea
 
GUV:

Guv
Could the bore get damaged by a possible hot jet of gas escaping past the bullet? Also wouldn't the twist over stabilize such a short bullet?
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Don't think I would damage bore. The Marlin 1895 has a 1-20 twist rate so might fail to stabilize such a short bullet.
 
If you were to use a cast .451 or ,452 dia bullet in a .457-.458 bore,I'd expect not only poor accuracy,but lead fouling.

Undersize bullets are typically the culprit behind lead fouling.Hot gas escaping past the bullet melts lead like a torch.

Would the gas erode the bore??I don't know enough to say.I know a leaking primer can erode a bolt face quite quickly.

Slug your bore,find your dia,and try to shoot jacketed bullets very close to bore dia,and cast bullets bore dia plus .001
 
"...a fellow using .45 pistol dies to neck down .45/70 brass..." Is very confused. Sounds like the guy thinks .45 calibre is .45 calibre the way some think 7.62mm is always .308".
As mentioned, the .45-70 uses a .458" bullet. Nothing horrible will happen, other than the likelihood of key holing will go way up. Undersize bullets are typically the culprit behind that.
"...Trapdoor Springfield should only be shot using lead cast bullets..." Isn't true at all. Factory ammo has been loaded with jacketed bullets to BP specs for eons.
 
Not .452 (ACP) but .454 (LC)

I shoot 255 gr. .454 bullets out of my Trapdoor Springfield, using 20 gr of IMR 5744. It's about 1600 FPS and very mild.

Not the most accurate but fun shooting steel at 50 yards.

Then I tried .500 (.505) bullet in my 50-70 Trapdoor, w/23 gr. of IMR4198. That load sucked big time. Totally inconstant ignition.
 
I don't think you would get any significant bore damage using lead bullets which would upset to fill the grooves. But jacketed GI type pistol bullets will not upset enough and erosion would definitely result in the old soft steel barrels. That would be the case even with the proper size bullet and would definitely happen with undersize bullets.

Jim
 
It's not going to work regardless whether or not you have Ballard type rifling. Apparently the OP is quite confused about how a bullet leaves the case and is forced into the rifling. It won't obturate anywhere near enough to fill the barrel, it will have a lot of hot gases going by it and cause severe leading, the throat won't work with a case squeezed down to accept the bullet, and to top it all off, there's absolutely no value in even trying to do it. If you want lighter bullets for the 45-70, get a mold and make lighter bullets....although they won't shoot for beans being that they're too short for caliber. I mean they might hit big targets close but won't really stabilize. What's the intent to begin with.....boredom?
 
It won't work very well....although the results might be surprisingly digestible. Experimentation is what many reloaders use to keep interest at the bench AND at the range. The .452-.454 projectile pushed out of a .457 bore will most likely rattle a bit on its way out....may tumble some....possibly differ radically in ballistic character even from round to identically loaded round. Don't worry about gas cutting on the early rifling, or copper jacket damage to the bore from warbling....you will grow weary of the lackluster results long before you fire enough of the experimental rounds to do any damage. If you do follow thru, document your results, I would definitely like to see exactly what happens. Like Jack Burton said...."hey....never know till ya' try".
 
"...Trapdoor Springfield should only be shot using lead cast bullets..." Isn't true at all. Factory ammo has been loaded with jacketed bullets to BP specs for eons.
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It is, and it isn't true, exactly. It's a difference between what the Trapdoor (originals) can be shot with, and what people feel they should be shot with.

Jacketed bullets loaded with modern smokeless powders (to Black Powder pressure specs) are "safe" to shoot, but there is a significant segment of the old rifle collectors and shooters that feel they should not be used.

Remember the "steel" in the old guns isn't all that much better than iron, and NOT close to modern alloys. It's a fact that jacketed bullets wear a barrel faster than lead ones, and with "softer" steel, it is even faster.

Also there is evidence (not proof, as far as I know) that the old guns fail at a higher rate when shot with smokeless ammo than they do with black powder loads. It is believed that while the smokeless pressure is within limits the difference from black powder puts a different kind of stress on the gun.

Now, .45 pistol bullets in a modern gun, like one of the Marlins?? Ok, can be done, but not without taking some extra effort AND using the right bullet.

First issue, the difference in the nominal bore and bullet size, the rifle is .458" .45ACP and modern .45 Colt bullets are .451-452", older (pre WWII) .45 Colt goes .454".

I suggest you research "paper patching".

Next issue is use in the rifle. Auto pistol bullets don't always have a cannelure to crimp into, and running non-crimped ammo through the tube mag is a good way to get bullets pushed too deeply into the case. And then, there is feeding, which you would have to experiment with.

I would think the best way would be to single load them into the chamber.

Also, I think it would be a poor idea to try and push something like a 230gr ACP bullet to high speeds. If you want that, use a slug properly sized for the bore.

In other words, I don't think the effort to make .45 pistol bullets work is worth it. My "reduced load" for my .45-70s (currently down to a Ruger No.3 and a T/C Contender) is a 385-400gr cast slug and 10gr Unique. Not sure of the velocity, its low. But is accurate in my guns, and very light recoil. (filler recommended for non range use)
 
I have a custom Martini in 45/70 and I load 250 grain lead bullets sized .454 that I use in my 45 Colt revolvers. I use enough 2400 to get about 1200 FPS and it is very accurate.

The rifle...

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Seems to shoot OK...

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