Use of .38 special or .357 magnum?? Answer needed, please!

H

hjm

New member
I do not understand the various threads about using .38 special rounds most of the time instead of .357 magnum in a .357 magnum caliber gun!

Why is this needed? I have seen opinions that say this is true and others that say it is not true. I know that frame size is an issue, i.e. K, L, medium, large, etc., but what are all the other factors?

I have a .357 magnum S&W model 66 with a 6" barrell and K frame(medium). I want to use .357 without worrying about "problems".

If using .357 magnums is bad, what exactly will happen to the gun if they are used instead of .38 specials? Is this dangerous?

Please, somebody, provide some information to educate me so I can stop thinking about this "issue" and either dump my .357 or start USING it!!

Thank you,

hjm
 
Greetings hjm and a big welcome to TFL-

Here is the issue at hand concerning the use of
.357 magnum ammunition in a small frame weapon
such as a K-frame model 19/66 or the L-frame
586/686. A steady diet of hot magnum ammo will
most certainly work these gun's loose. Yes, you
can use magnum loads; but I would only use them
on a limited basis, and not for home
defense. The reason, magnum rounds have been
known to over penetrate; in some instances
going through walls or windows and killing
innocent by-standers. I prefer .38 Special +P's
with a jacketed hollow-point configuration, as
they are less likely to over penetrate.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.
 
Most often the recommmendations to use .38 Special ammo in .357 Magnum guns arise when one cannot handle the recoil, blast, and/or noise of the magnum loads, or one simply does not want, or need, that level of power. Using .38s for practice and plinking in a .357 is one of the benefits of owning a .357.

As for damaging a magnum with a "steady diet" of magnums, I wouldn't worry too much about it. First of all, it means shooting more than most people do. But more importantly, if you bought a magnum, and need, or want to shoot magnum rounds, do it. If the gun breaks, or needs adjustment get the parts replaced, the timing fixed, etc. as necessary.

The argument some people make with magnums makes me wonder if they keep their cars under 35 mph. After all, they wouldn't want to cause excessive wear, or need maintenance at some point, right?
 
I have to agree with LIProgun. If you like the magnums, shoot the magnums. They cost an arm and a leg, but they are fun to shoot. Your model 66 is a great gun. Shoot it, enjoy it, repair it if it becomes necessary, but don't park it on the shelf out of fear of tearing it up. By the way, some magnum rounds are less punishing to guns than others. Apparently the hardest on a gun are the 125 grain rounds, while the 158 grain stuff is easier on them. :)
 
Let me add one additional point: the cost differential between .38 Specials and .357 magnums for target practice. If this Smith 66 is going to be a primary defensive handgun, you obviously want to develop real proficiency with it. That requires considerable range time. Therefore, the cost of range "target practice" ammunition could become important.

In my four .357 magnums (two Ruger KGP-141s and two S&W 627s), over 90 percent of my practice is with inexpensive -- but very accurate --.38 Special loads (usually, 130 grain FMJ). However, I carry .357 rounds for personal defense and a shoot enough premium .357 mag defensive loads to be very familiar with their characteristics.

In this way, I reduce costs and aggregate stress of my revolvers -- while remaining very proficient.
 
You bought a 357 to shoot 357, not 38 right? Shoot 357, and don't worry about it. The gun is rated for 357, so it will shoot any standard 357 magnum load. The only drawback is cost.
Yes if you shoot "hot" handloads exclusively, the guns lifespan will be reduced a little. As long as your loads stay within SAMMI specs you will be fine. ENGOY YOUR PISTOL AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT!!!!:D
 
Thank you all for the great responses.

Now, the next line of questions.

What constitutes "hot" handloads for ammo?
What are SAMMI specs for a .357 magnum?
How does the amount of grains compare to the power?
What is the difference between 125, 158, 130 in terms of power/kick?

Thanks,

hjm
 
hjm, rather than try to explain all that here, let me make a recommendation: Go buy hornadys 2 volume reloading manual, and read through it, that should answer all your questions.

One other thing: If you intend to shoot 357 regularly, I highly recommend getting into reloading. Around here factory ammo is $13-17 each. I reload for around $9 per box.
 
Several points:

Modern factory .357 is generally milder than the "original loading" circa 1935, which involved a 158grain slug doing better than 1,500fps (feet per second). That is HOT stuff. The first (and at that time only) .357 gun was based on the big N-Frame. Some companies such as Cor-Bon sell .357 hunting ammo that approaches that sort of power level, and it should be used only in limited amounts with the bigger .357 guns, versus something like your K-Frame.

Second, bullet velocity always rises as a factor of barrel length. The rule of thumb is 50fps per extra inch of barrel. That means that out of your 6" tube, you're going to get very respectable performance out of .38+P.

In addition to issues surrounding recoil and wear on the gun, you need to consider the noise factor on indoor shootings without ear protection. Crank off some of the hotter 125grain loads such as the Remington or ProLoad high velocity in a small enclosed room, and you're liable to damage your hearing in as little as one shot, which would suck :(.

If that was my gun, and I was loading it for home or street defense, I'd seriously consider one of the better .38+P loads. Probably a Winchester 158grain pure lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint, or the Federal version of that load which is the same but dipped in plastic so it doesn't lead up the barrel :). They'll be very controllable, accurate, and if you do your part (read: shot placement) they'll do theirs. Try out some of the better .38+P Jacketed rounds too, like the Winchester Supreme 130grain...I found these to be very accurate in my snubbie but from a 2" barrel I'm not certain they're moving fast enough to expand reliably...from a 6" tube like yours I'd be a LOT less concerned.

Almost all premium .38+P will perform from a 6" tube. Pick one for accuracy and you'll do fine.

Another possibility: ProLoad sells a "tactical lite" 125grain .357 at reduced velocity that sort of "bridges the gap" between .357 and .38+P. Worth considering.

Finally, you might consider loading one of the "crash and boom special" hot .357s like the Remington 125grain as the LAST round in the first cylinder, as the gun's way of telling you "I'm dry, fool, figure out a plan B" :D. Especially for street defense. Indoors, damn, it really is gonna be LOUD! :D.
 
Second, bullet velocity always rises as a factor of barrel length.
Click to expand...
Only for certain values of "always." ;) For instance, some standard pressure 9mm ammo performs worse out of a PC9 carbine than they do in a 4in. barrel pistol. I suspect you'd see the same thing shooting .38 in a .357 carbine.
 
VL, I thought it was all fast/light loads? HJM, the issue is specific to K-frames, not L-frames. The K-frame barrel is not fully round in the rear (the forcing cone) and when those fast/light bullets (which are also usually jacketed, rather than the softer lead 158s) hit the forcing cone they hit it hard. Eventually, it can crack the forcing cone.
 
Another issue

Many/most .357s are a little short on ejector stroke. Hot 38++ reloads give nothing away to the mighty .357 and shorter case will eject more completely. Also, a good reason to keep pressures down on your defensive load is some of the ultra thunder loads can be very sticky to eject.
 
I never use 38s in my 357s. I handload, so I can make up reduced power loads using 357 cases. That way you don't gunk up your cylinder. Cleaning a 357 cylinder after shooting a lot of 38s is just too much of a chore and there are other things I would rather be doing...like shooting!
 
There are 2 downsides (sort of) to using .38s in a .357, both the result of the .38 case being about 1/8" shorter than the magnum case:

1) Over the very long term, erosion from hot gases may/will burn a ring into the chamber just ahead of the case mouth. If you've burned in that ring with 38s and then fire a .357, gas pressure will force the brass into the ring (1/8" back from the mouth of the .357), and it can lead to difficult extraction. Note that this is one of those truisms that everyone "knows", but probably no one has ever actually experienced. It would probably take thousands & thousands of rounds to show up.

2) More likely, what can happen if you shoot mostly .38s, is you'll get a buildup of powder residue and other crap in the chambers just ahead of the case mouth. This will prevent the slightly longer .357 from chambering. The solution is simply to keep the chambers clean. I've seen this personally, in the gun of a friend who liked shooting his guns more than cleaning them.
 
Can someone explain to me why a 125 grain round is harder on a gun than a 158 grain round? Is this specific to Smiths or is it true of all manufacturers?
 
Neal: The .357 was engineered around a heavyweigt lead bullet, as you read in Jim's post. The 158gr loads were still prevalent when Bill Jordan cajoled S&W into creating the K-frame .357 M19. Later on, ammo development lead to the .357 125 JHP @ 1450fps. JNewell seemed to explain it well. If you look at the 6 o'clock of a K-frame forcing cone, you will see a flat plane milled off the bottom in order for the yoke to close into the frame. This is not present on the other frame sizes, including the J-frame.

JNewell: The 'hearsay' is from a S&W forum poster who damaged two of his K magnums in a single outing with 125gr loads. Both were fixed under warranty, and the caveat was told to him by the customer service rep.
 
Hi VL, not trying to take anything away from what you posted, but I would guess that other light/fast loads (of which we don't see much any more, for sure) would do the same -- hot 110s being the only load that comes readily to mind. There used to be really hot 90-somethings, I think, but that may go back to Super-Vel days (have I dated myself???:) )

Neal, I'm not a gunsmith or metalurgist (probably didn't even spell that correctly!), but I suspect it's pretty simple: the light bullets are (1) harder, because we're usually talking about jacketed bullets, and (2) faster, because they can and because they have to be to achieve the desired performance at the target.

Jeff and everyone else is right on about the other drawbacks. Handloading the .357 is simple and maybe even relaxing, not to mention cheaper. One of the nice things about wheelguns is that they don't talk back when you feed them funny stuff!
 
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