US War Crimes and Depleted Uranium

S

scc

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Posts Split from Unrelated Thread: Rich Lucibella

this is sort of 45 degrees from the main point on this thread, but here's my .02.
We can argue these points all day long, but here's the crux in my opinion. pres. bush attacked a country that was not an imminent threat to us, no connection to 9/11 and had no wmd, and If any of you still think he didn't know these things before he gave the "go" order, I think you're in denial. We killed thousands of innocent iraqis , and thousands of our own troops, which many of you on this board claim to support. We used depleted uranium munitions, which is the underlying cause of gulf war syndrome whether the pentagon will admit it or not. when ignited, say, in a cruise missile or a tank shell, it burns hot enough to melt through steel, which is why we use it. it also emits radioactive dust fine enough to penetrate your standard gas mask. it has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, and if you don't think that's gonna make you sick, think again. research it on your own. my point is that what you guys are arguing about is cosmetic, compared with the real problem, which is bush committed war crimes the likes of which have not been seen in my 35 years on earth. I've read a lot of support the troops and patriotic sounding language on this board, but here you've got a president commiting crimes with our money, letting the israelis dictate our policies to us while their spies run rampant all over our country, taking money right out of our pockets with his economic policies(btw, has anyone seen our currency exchange rate lately? enough to make your blood boil) and some of you still back him up. do you bush supporters really love the u.s.a., or not? cause you don't act like it. just my opinion.
 
scc,

when ignited, say, in a cruise missile or a tank shell, it burns hot enough to melt through steel, which is why we use it. it also emits radioactive dust fine enough to penetrate your standard gas mask. it has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, and if you don't think that's gonna make you sick, think again. research it on your own.
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1) DU is not used in "cruise missiles".
2) We don't "ignite it".
3) We don't use it because it "melts through steel", we use it because a DU long rod penetrator is denser, and therefore heavier, than a tungsten carbide or steel long rod penetrator. The pyrophoric properties of the DU spall are merely a happy coincidence.
4) Research on the topic is definitely indicated for one of us. :)
 
Hey Tam

I was under the impression that the du shells were just like slugs with with no propellant just a denser than all get out hunk of metal? Being so dense it smashed/liquified/and then vaporized a metal target when hit? Not vaporizing the entire target of course but a localized area....but damn sure destroying a wholde target :cool: . Is this for the most part in accord with what you have read?
 
Generally correct.

Depleted uranium rounds are kinetic energy rounds -- they contain no explosives at all. The fact that the penetrators are moving at extremely high velocity (over 5,000 fps in an Abrahams main gun, IIRC), and that they have an extremely high weight and sectional density gives them amazing penetrating powers.

DU also has another rather unique quality -- when the penetrator hits something, instead of going blunt (like a nail hitting a chunk of steel), it actually self sharpens as pieces fracture away.
 
scc-
No one questions that DU may be a Health Hazard....WAR is a Health Hazard. Lead, Antimony and many other toxic items are prevalent. I think what Tams was saying is that you have so many of your facts incorrect, it's difficult to tell which are worthwhile.

Currently there are 15 US Gulf War soldiers being followed for DU fragments in their bodies. No adverse health effects as yet. The WHO did a pretty good study after claims that Leukemia rates in Kosovo were increasing. Their report found no link, though they did exhibit concern that local lead concentrations were high in that population. Lead is also highly toxic.

We used depleted uranium munitions, which is the underlying cause of gulf war syndrome whether the pentagon will admit it or not.
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Sigh. Source please. There are numerous theories about the cause of Gulf War Syndrome. Given the enormous variation in symptoms, I think the most believable one is that a large group of our troops, awaiting ship out near the docks, were exposed to Sadaam's chemical weapons when our own Chemical Corp blew up a warehouse several miles away.

Thanks-
Rich
 
If you wait until a threat is imminent, it's too late.

That's why they called it the "Cuban Missile Crisis" instead of the "Cuban Missile Situation."

Just because Saddam managed to bluff the US and the rest of the world into believing that he had significant, ready-to-deploy stockpiles of chemical and other weapons of mass destruction, doesn't mean that calling his bluff wasn't the right thing to do.
 
We were told that the radioactivity of DU was so small as to be irrelavent. Now, it is a minor hazard, as it is a heavy metal, like lead etc., and is toxic as such. Same kind of care should be taken with it. Munitions have enamel or paint on them, which serves to protect the metal from being damaged, which might realease an absorbable form. In case you want to go back to tungsten, it too is a heavy metal. And it's more expensive, and less effective.
 
Gifted-
I think you're on the money, but I don't want to downplay the risks.

There's decent evidence that DU (U238) is every bit as toxic as U235 (though not as a radiologic agent). Initial studies in the 40's suggested that U238 might be used, itself, as a warhead in powdered form.

On the other hand, it is used commonly in commercial aircraft, medical equipment and even dentures. (Evidence indicates it is not absorbed in the gut.) For my part I'd prefer not to be around it. It's a heavy metal and heavy metals are bad. But war is, by nature, a dangerous occupation. Chemical weapons stockpiles, hard use paints hastily applied in the field, God-Awful levels of DEET necessary in insect repellents....you name it.

As an armor buster, we all agree DU is ideally suited. Most important, in context of this thread, despite "War Crime" charges, the use of DU is neither illegal nor prohibited under any international agreements, including the Geneva Conventions.

Rich
 
well, start with the du link I posted, if I got some facts wrong, ok, i can accept that. that link is very well-researched, go through it and see. I don't think you can just attack a country and kill it's citizens because they "might" have wmd and lie to make people go along. you guys who support this war always approach those of us who don't with a bemused exasperation; that's fine, but a war crime is a war crime. those people did nothing to us. we were lied to, and no amount of bemused exasperation is going to change that. I, however, respect your opinion, as I hope you respect mine. I'll be more precise in the future, but my sources are solid.
 
fine, but a war crime is a war crime.
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SCC-
That's where our "bemused exasperation" comes from. Words have meaning. Especially words that are serious accusations, like "War Crimes".

BDD asked the operative question above. Kindly respond.
Rich
 
"1) DU is not used in "cruise missiles".
2) We don't "ignite it".
3) We don't use it because it "melts through steel", we use it because a DU long rod penetrator is denser, and therefore heavier, than a tungsten carbide or steel long rod penetrator. The pyrophoric properties of the DU spall are merely a happy coincidence.
4) Research on the topic is definitely indicated for one of us."

I agree with Tamara (As I frequently do).

I will add that DU is Uranium from which the fissonable material has been almost completely removed. That is what "depleted" means.

DU is often used for RADIATION SHIELDING

Some American main battle tanks include DU layers in their compound armor.

As Tamara suggests do some independent reasearch before spreading Anti American propaganda.
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The problem some folks have is they instantly inhale and exhale anything that fits their particular agenda, no research, no corroboration required. "They said it was researched" Is more than enough for some people (many need even less). Here's to more objective analysis of any information before presenting it to others as "fact".
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There's decent evidence that DU (U238) is every bit as toxic as U235 (though not as a radiologic agent).

Since U238 is chemically identical to U235, its operation as a heavy-metal toxin being identical is not surprising.

Powdered uranium is pyrophoric, meaning it bursts into flame when exposed to air. Iron sulfide and aluminum powder are also pyrophoric.
 
You folks are being ever so much more calm than I would be able to be in response to scc's comments - well done. :)
 
"Powdered uranium is pyrophoric"

Hence at least some (but not all) of the pyrotechnical display when a long-rod penetrator is fired against armor.

"chemically identical"

Given that they're both elements, chemically "pure" substances that can't be broken down into simpler compounds, that's a given, isn't it?

The same would be true of carbon 12 and carbon 14...
 
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