Frank, you nailed it. Between a wussified (Cumpulsory Consideration of Others training?) military establishment and then, when put into action, serving under foreign command in a fight that's not ours, I chose to skip serving in the military. My father served, my grandfather served, etc., but that was a different military - if it were still around, I'd probably be in it.
US Korean war soldiers coffins draped with UN flag
- Thread starter dZ
- Start date
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Ivan-
I am as insulted by this event as you. However, I urge you to reconsider political action: write your legislators, newpapers and internet sites. Complaint without action is little more than the hand wringing of the defeated.
Once again, you allude to a decades old, organized conspiracy which has resulted in this travesty. Once again, you insult each of us who choose to see a different cause and effect than you (but who are no less horrified). Once again, you provide no enlightenment as to the source of this conspiracy and choose, rather, to urinate on any suggestion of political action.
No one here wants to silence you; but neither do we wish to be insulted by you. When you make statements such as "The people commenting on this travesty of the Un flag seemed to have just woke up.", you directly flame every poster to the thread and violate Forum Policies in the mix. Please Think Twice; Post Once.
Respectfully and Repeatedly,
Rich Lucibella
I am as insulted by this event as you. However, I urge you to reconsider political action: write your legislators, newpapers and internet sites. Complaint without action is little more than the hand wringing of the defeated.
Once again, you allude to a decades old, organized conspiracy which has resulted in this travesty. Once again, you insult each of us who choose to see a different cause and effect than you (but who are no less horrified). Once again, you provide no enlightenment as to the source of this conspiracy and choose, rather, to urinate on any suggestion of political action.
No one here wants to silence you; but neither do we wish to be insulted by you. When you make statements such as "The people commenting on this travesty of the Un flag seemed to have just woke up.", you directly flame every poster to the thread and violate Forum Policies in the mix. Please Think Twice; Post Once.
Respectfully and Repeatedly,
Rich Lucibella
Right on Rich, I dont mean to flame the people who are RIGHTLY Madder than you know what about this travesty to all of us vets past and present. But wont we all agree this subversion of our militARY,although not noticable in the beginning, has been bulding up over the years,but now ofcoarse is out in the open. As for writing letters to my representatives it would at least show my disgust. But those two clowns, Senators Milkulski and Sarbanes , are as far to the left as anyone in the Senate could be. But, good point, because tommorow i am going over to frederick where the Headquarters of my Congressional delegate, Bartlett is located. He is a so called conservartive republican and i am going to print thism topic out and give it to one of his aides. I guess you and others know i get so feed up with all these politicos.
dZ,
Thanks for bringing this matter to our attention. It is an outrage.
I have also written my Congressional deligates and demanded an investigation and firing of the person responsible. It's discusting to think that the person responsible for this is being paid with our tax dollars.
Thanks for bringing this matter to our attention. It is an outrage.
I have also written my Congressional deligates and demanded an investigation and firing of the person responsible. It's discusting to think that the person responsible for this is being paid with our tax dollars.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Ivan-
Thanks. I think we're on the same page. GodSpeed tomorrow.
Rich
Thanks. I think we're on the same page. GodSpeed tomorrow.
Rich
Christopher
New member
Partial press-release quote from U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., Richard C. Holbrooke. "A New Realism for a New Era: The U.S. and the UN in the 21st Century," November 2, 1999 - USUN PR-103 (99) (Emphasis mine)
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"...Let's be clear about what the UN isn't. The United Nations was never intended to be - nor will it ever be - some sort of world government. It will never make foreign policy decisions for the United States, NOR WILL IT EVER LEAD OUR TROOPS IN COMBAT. It will never replace the institutions or individuals in our country, who in fulfillment of their constitutional obligations to the people make these decisions. The President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, as well as the entire national security team, along with both houses of Congress, make our decisions. They, and they alone, not the UN, determine our national policy..."
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Maybe someone should drop this guy a line and ask him if he was really just blowing smoke.
[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited November 14, 1999).]
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"...Let's be clear about what the UN isn't. The United Nations was never intended to be - nor will it ever be - some sort of world government. It will never make foreign policy decisions for the United States, NOR WILL IT EVER LEAD OUR TROOPS IN COMBAT. It will never replace the institutions or individuals in our country, who in fulfillment of their constitutional obligations to the people make these decisions. The President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, as well as the entire national security team, along with both houses of Congress, make our decisions. They, and they alone, not the UN, determine our national policy..."
---------------------------------------------
Maybe someone should drop this guy a line and ask him if he was really just blowing smoke.
[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited November 14, 1999).]
I talked to two vets (one Vietnam, one Korea) over the weekend. Neither of them knew about this. They do now.
One of them, the Vietnam guy, was so furious I thought we was gonna keel over right there... veins bulging on his head, eyes bugging out, fists clenched tight enough to shatter lug nuts.
This incident will not go unresolved, methinks.
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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
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Coinneach, CO CAN Operator
One of them, the Vietnam guy, was so furious I thought we was gonna keel over right there... veins bulging on his head, eyes bugging out, fists clenched tight enough to shatter lug nuts.
This incident will not go unresolved, methinks.
------------------
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
----------
Coinneach, CO CAN Operator
Just got a reply from VFW:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Coinneach:
Thank you for your concern and comments. In response, here is some additional information for your consideration.
There are actually four repatriation ceremonies. The first was at Pyongyang
where no flags were used, but a U.S. military honor guard was used. The second was at Yokota Air base, Japan where the UN flag was used because it was a United Nations Command ceremony. The third will be at Guam where a
U.S. flag will used, and the fourth will be at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii on Nov. 19th where a U.S. flag will be used. The final two ceremonies have not taken place yet.
During the Korean War, U.S. forces who fought against North Korea and China were actually part of the United Nations Command. Other nations such as the United Kingdom and Turkey, among countries, sent some forces to fight against North Korea and China. U.S. military forces made up the overwhelming majority of the UN forces during the Korean War and did most of the fighting, but not all of it.
At UN Command ceremonies, the UN flag is used because it is a UN ceremony. At U.S. repatriation ceremonies, the U.S. flag is used.
When the remains come out of North Korea, it is not always certain that the remains are U.S. remains. Virtually all of the recoveries since 1996 have been probable U.S. remains.
Since the war in Korea ended with an armistice and not a peace treaty, the United Nations Command still exists today and is located in the Republic of Korea. United Nations Command Rear headquarters is located at Camp Zama, Japan.
Before October 1999, every set of Koean War remains that had been returned from North Korea passed through Panmunjom, and were turned over to the United Nations Command first. Then, the remains wre passed on to the United States or another country if the remains were not U.S. military remains.
The U.S. flag is used at all repatriation ceremonies when the remains are returned to U.S. soil.
Presently, in accordance with a new agreeement between all parties, all
probable U.S. Korean War remains are being returned from Pyongyang through Yokota then back to the United States.
In the past, VFW Department of the Pacific representatives have participated in repatriation ceremonies at Panmunjom. Recently, the VFW participated in repatriation ceremonies at At Yokota Air Base, Japan, on October 25th and November 11th when the last two groups of probable U.S. remains were returned from North Korea. VFW members have participated in U.S. repatriation ceremonies at Guam and Hickam AFB in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
Thanks for your interest on this issue.
Bruce R. Harder
Director, National Security & Foreign Affairs
bharder@vfwdc.org
[/quote]
------------------
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
----------
Coinneach, CO CAN Operator
[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited November 15, 1999).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Coinneach:
Thank you for your concern and comments. In response, here is some additional information for your consideration.
There are actually four repatriation ceremonies. The first was at Pyongyang
where no flags were used, but a U.S. military honor guard was used. The second was at Yokota Air base, Japan where the UN flag was used because it was a United Nations Command ceremony. The third will be at Guam where a
U.S. flag will used, and the fourth will be at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii on Nov. 19th where a U.S. flag will be used. The final two ceremonies have not taken place yet.
During the Korean War, U.S. forces who fought against North Korea and China were actually part of the United Nations Command. Other nations such as the United Kingdom and Turkey, among countries, sent some forces to fight against North Korea and China. U.S. military forces made up the overwhelming majority of the UN forces during the Korean War and did most of the fighting, but not all of it.
At UN Command ceremonies, the UN flag is used because it is a UN ceremony. At U.S. repatriation ceremonies, the U.S. flag is used.
When the remains come out of North Korea, it is not always certain that the remains are U.S. remains. Virtually all of the recoveries since 1996 have been probable U.S. remains.
Since the war in Korea ended with an armistice and not a peace treaty, the United Nations Command still exists today and is located in the Republic of Korea. United Nations Command Rear headquarters is located at Camp Zama, Japan.
Before October 1999, every set of Koean War remains that had been returned from North Korea passed through Panmunjom, and were turned over to the United Nations Command first. Then, the remains wre passed on to the United States or another country if the remains were not U.S. military remains.
The U.S. flag is used at all repatriation ceremonies when the remains are returned to U.S. soil.
Presently, in accordance with a new agreeement between all parties, all
probable U.S. Korean War remains are being returned from Pyongyang through Yokota then back to the United States.
In the past, VFW Department of the Pacific representatives have participated in repatriation ceremonies at Panmunjom. Recently, the VFW participated in repatriation ceremonies at At Yokota Air Base, Japan, on October 25th and November 11th when the last two groups of probable U.S. remains were returned from North Korea. VFW members have participated in U.S. repatriation ceremonies at Guam and Hickam AFB in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
Thanks for your interest on this issue.
Bruce R. Harder
Director, National Security & Foreign Affairs
bharder@vfwdc.org
[/quote]
------------------
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
----------
Coinneach, CO CAN Operator
[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited November 15, 1999).]
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Coinneach-
Great job at digging out the details. We are in your debt.
In light of the VFW response, it appears that the UN Service serves to honor, rather than "claim" the dead. If this is correct, it is as it should be.
Doesn't make the UN and it's little "humanitarian actions" any more palatable to me; but then again, it certainly doesn't appear to be an attempt to subvert the US Military or citizens.
Thanks again.
Rich
Great job at digging out the details. We are in your debt.
In light of the VFW response, it appears that the UN Service serves to honor, rather than "claim" the dead. If this is correct, it is as it should be.
Doesn't make the UN and it's little "humanitarian actions" any more palatable to me; but then again, it certainly doesn't appear to be an attempt to subvert the US Military or citizens.
Thanks again.
Rich
My blushes, Rich and Doc Zox. 
I didn't do anything except to alert the people I thought should be alerted. Frankly I didn't expect a reply at all... VFW is a major org with thousands of members, and I'm just a pissant former AF weenie with no combat time. I was very surprised to get this detailed response.
Thanks anyway.
------------------
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
----------
Coinneach, CO CAN Operator
I didn't do anything except to alert the people I thought should be alerted. Frankly I didn't expect a reply at all... VFW is a major org with thousands of members, and I'm just a pissant former AF weenie with no combat time. I was very surprised to get this detailed response.
Thanks anyway.
------------------
"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
----------
Coinneach, CO CAN Operator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The U.S. flag is used at all repatriation ceremonies when the remains are returned to U.S. soil.[/quote]
Isn't the U.S. Airbase in Japan considered U.S. Soil, and if so, according to Mr. Harder, shouldn't the U.S. Flag have been used?
I still don't like it.
Isn't the U.S. Airbase in Japan considered U.S. Soil, and if so, according to Mr. Harder, shouldn't the U.S. Flag have been used?
I still don't like it.
denaf:
US bases in foreign countries are not "US soil." They are in use by us under a status of forces agreement, sort of "on loan." The host nation remian soverign.
This was as I expected it to be. The UN command turning the remains over to the United States. They are honoring our soliders. Take the high ground and accept it for what it is.
The UN command for the Korean situation is one of the oldest UN commands in existence. I believe it has always been commanded by a US officer.
I served in Korea. We were always under US command authority. In evry case where there is a "UN command", the US troops remain under US command. That is a general policy of the United States.
US bases in foreign countries are not "US soil." They are in use by us under a status of forces agreement, sort of "on loan." The host nation remian soverign.
This was as I expected it to be. The UN command turning the remains over to the United States. They are honoring our soliders. Take the high ground and accept it for what it is.
The UN command for the Korean situation is one of the oldest UN commands in existence. I believe it has always been commanded by a US officer.
I served in Korea. We were always under US command authority. In evry case where there is a "UN command", the US troops remain under US command. That is a general policy of the United States.
Frank Haertlein
Moderator
Regardless of what may have transpired, if it were me in one of those coffins I would be spinning. I don't fight for "world causes". I fight for America, plain and simple. I take offense to any flag except our own! Sorry, but I see the UN as simply a tool to be used to promote American style freedom.....anything else ain't worth dying for.
I think people are going a bit soft and US is merging with the term UN. To Fred, the day of US military under Us control is basically dead. In Macedonia, a Finnish general was in charge of US troops. Michael New was drummed out of "US" military for refusing to wear basically a UN uniform. For all intents and purposes, Nato is now the military Arm of the UN and US ,of coarse, is the leading cannonfodder supplier for this outfit. All the US leadership from Klinton, AlBright, and Cohene talk about is Un UN UN when they speak on intrnational subjects. Our "new" military is being or is already subjegated to the UN system. Many have left in disgust already because of this trend towards a Globalist agenda. No more will "our military" be used in the protection of our nation. Proof? it has been so gutted of its SAC Forces, Rocket Forces, and halved naval forces that it is ceasing to exist as a force used TO DEFEND THE UNITED STATES. But people keep listening to the politicos and ignore the STATS.Oh boy, we got troops in 80 countries now. We are defending America? No! we are international coppers. I have a middle finger for the Un:anyone else feel this way besides me and a few others? I guarantee you wont see China or Russia cutting their strategic forces and leave themselves open to attack. On the contrary, while we gut our nuclear strike capabilitieas and become UN Coppers, Russia and China build up their rocket forces for the final showdown with USA i n the not so distant future. Urban warfare operations so bragged about by our military wont do much good against powerful sea , land ,and air launched rocket attacks against America. Our Globalist leadership haas sold us down the river in a period of only 7 to 10 years and has left the USA mainland open to sudden destruction. No I dont think i am off the subject because those UN draped coffins are really symbolic of the danger this nation is in. Big time danger.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Guys-
The test of a man is not just the times he's willing to fight; but also the times he's willing to admit that he jumped a bit too quickly. This, we all did, including me. TFL is not just here to notify people of infringements on our rights; but also to provide info on the batlles worth fighting vs those that just make us look silly.
In light of Coineach's info, I think we should heed Fred S's advice:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They are honoring our soldiers. Take the high ground and accept it for what it is.[/quote]
This doesn't make the UN "good"; it only makes this a battle unworthy of a fight. Please let this thread die a natural death.
Regards,
Rich Lucibella
The test of a man is not just the times he's willing to fight; but also the times he's willing to admit that he jumped a bit too quickly. This, we all did, including me. TFL is not just here to notify people of infringements on our rights; but also to provide info on the batlles worth fighting vs those that just make us look silly.
In light of Coineach's info, I think we should heed Fred S's advice:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They are honoring our soldiers. Take the high ground and accept it for what it is.[/quote]
This doesn't make the UN "good"; it only makes this a battle unworthy of a fight. Please let this thread die a natural death.
Regards,
Rich Lucibella
Nancy Siebern
New member
I have to agree with Ivan, especially after reading the PC response from the VFW, a venerable organization of which I am a lifetime member. If the UN wants to "honor" these remains, let them put their flag on a standard in the distance. But to drape the coffins of Americans who fought and died in Korea or any other Godforsaken pissant nation with anything other than the flag of our country is unacceptable to their memory and unacceptable to their families. And is should be unacceptable to EVERY American, not explained away by the VFW. Michael New and the way this country treated him will not fade away as quickly as this administration would like. Not as long as I have a breath in my body. Had it been my father in one of those UN coffins,I would, as suggested, very ceremoniously walked up and ripped the gd thing off, set it on fire and replaced it with the right flag. ABC,CBS,NBC,CNN, and Fox be damned. Might have set them on fire, too.
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Nancy
The original point and click was a S&W
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Nancy
The original point and click was a S&W
Ed Brunner
New member
Rich and others;
Nobody jumped too quick in my ever so humble opinion.OUR Flag is more than a symbol. These men apparently gave their lives for this country.If my memory serves me correctly the Korean conflict took place way back in the 50's. This was long before we were subjected to the liberal interpretation of what our flag really means.
Being an old man, I have seen a lot. I have seen men put their lives on the line for our flag. Not what it stands for- but for the flag itself!
I seriously doubt that the deceased men themselves would have wanted to to be draped with that blue thing!!
And as it is their memory that we honor I still think it is entirely unfitting to have used the UN flag.
Look at it like this: What is the United Nations? Is it a country?? Is IT what these men were willing to die for?
I think that in all likelyhood there are at least two answers to this riddle and only one would make sense to a soldier.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Nobody jumped too quick in my ever so humble opinion.OUR Flag is more than a symbol. These men apparently gave their lives for this country.If my memory serves me correctly the Korean conflict took place way back in the 50's. This was long before we were subjected to the liberal interpretation of what our flag really means.
Being an old man, I have seen a lot. I have seen men put their lives on the line for our flag. Not what it stands for- but for the flag itself!
I seriously doubt that the deceased men themselves would have wanted to to be draped with that blue thing!!
And as it is their memory that we honor I still think it is entirely unfitting to have used the UN flag.
Look at it like this: What is the United Nations? Is it a country?? Is IT what these men were willing to die for?
I think that in all likelyhood there are at least two answers to this riddle and only one would make sense to a soldier.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Ed Brunner
New member
And by the way: GO NANCY!!!!
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Better days to be,
Ed
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Better days to be,
Ed