Urban Carbine Fraud!

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Yes Dave - I HAVE tested... I NEVER said that about Hollow Points. Most people know when a hollow point clogs up it turns into Ball Ammo.

I tested the Hornady VX stuff and it breaks apart very well I dont know how it will perform for you - but it worked just as advertised when I tested it.

BTW - I test ALL my ammo. ALL of it. If I buy a box of ammo that I never tried before - before it becomes "DUTY AMMO" it gets tested. My tests are conducted different depending upon caliber and this rounds "mission". Testing incuded Auto Windshields and all sorts of building materials... Articles of clothing as well.
This is because I take guns very seriously and do not put a whole lot of faith into gun magazines. "The Right Ammo" is key to every shooting problem. There is no one Magic, do all bullet, load, or even caliber.

(accept maybe .45ACP) :D
 
Yup. Some folks like the Debutantes' Ball; George like the Hard Ball--and he plays the music!

Me? Aw, I just read to 'em from the Scriptures. The first nine verses from the Book of Colt.

:), Art
 
My "urban Carbine" is a peaceful Winchester Model 94 .44 Magnum/.44 Special. Out to a hundred yards it will get the jpb done.
 
Frangible ammunition is FRANGIBLE. Turns into Fragments when it hits hard surfases.

HAVE YOU TESTED IT!?

Yes. Pull your head out. You think you stumbled on an obvious truth about projectiles and ballistics no one else ever noticed?

Go test V-max and frangible rounds then come lecture us on fraud.



[This message has been edited by Shin-Tao (edited August 18, 2000).]
 
20 bucks for 6 rounds of frangible is expensive... (even more for rifle calibers) testing will easily set you back a hundred bucks or more.
However - you will, in the end, find that the tests are a good investment.
 
Bogie,

The actions you mention are specialist actions for truly SERIOUS guns.

I worked with a Stolle a couple of years ago, and was immensely impressed with it. I was also immensely impressed with its price tag. :)

What I should have said is that I believe the Remington 700 action to be the best non-custom action available today on which to build a superbly accurate rifle.

My chuck gun, a 700 BDL action in .243, custom barrel and trigger, bedded into a Remington stock that I hogged out and strengthened, and topped with a Leupold 6.5x18 scope, will do 1/2" or better if I do my job (which I frequently fail to do :))

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Hi, guys,

Are we talking about waging war or defending a home from an intruder? Not the same thing.

Near here a woman fired an SKS (7.62x39) at her husband. Just showing love, I guess. The bullet went through the wall of their house, through two walls of a house 50 yards away and lodged in the wall of a third house. And this is a "medium power" round.

I once knew a devotee of Mel Tappen who kept an .308 H&K and 20 magazines loaded with GI ball as a "burglar gun" in an apartment with walls so thin you could hear the neighbor wiping his..., well you get the picture. Any ideas what might have happened if he had touched off 10 or 20 rounds at an intruder, real or imaginary?

Jim
 
For all the talk about penetrating walls, I haven't seen much talk about penetrating perps. What's the stopping power stats of .223 vs 9mm vs .45 vs 12-guage 00 buck? I'm first concerned with immediately stopping the target, THEN secondarily concerned about stopping the bullet.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave3006:
You mention "the right ammo". Has even one person tested penetration of this magic ammo in building like materials? I am amazed at the assumptions that people make about something so serious. Everything is heresay. It is mindboggling to think that my simple test could be so revealing!

Have you tried this ammo for testing under these conditions?

P.S.

The hollowpoint .223 American Eagle 52 grain rounds sailed through 4 3/4" plywood boards on my test. Before this, everyone said hollowpoints were good non-penetrators. [/quote]

Well, you're right about one thing, everything is hearsay, including YOUR tests. No offense to you or your tests, but you've just categorized them yourself.

In other words, us reading about your tests has no more or less validity than us reading about tests in American Rifleman, Soldier of Fortune, etc.


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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
ctdonath,

Interesting question, clearly I'd much rather have the AR than a .45 pistol if I wanted to plant a bad guy in his tracks. There just isn't any real comparison in stopping power when you're comparing rifle rounds to pistol rounds. Another plus is I get 30 chances to stop him with my AR. :)

The shotgun vs. the rifle is a much closer comparison, I suspect that either will stop pretty effectively.
 
The gun rags have successfully created a public need for the "urban rifle/carbine". The big push was the Y2K scare, they warned us about hundreds of crazed gang bangers looting and shooting up suburban neighborhoods. Another scare tactic was the North Hollywood shootout. Now everybody is fearfull that they will be attacked by bank robbers armed with AK-47's and dressed in Kevlar. Your sidearm or faithfull buckshot-stoked scattergun is no longer usefull on the modern urban battle field. No, you need a Colt M4 carbine with gagets galore.

Clint Smith must has steel lined walls in his house. I know if I fired a 5.56 round in my house, that suckers gonna end up in the neighbors living room.
 
I have to say this: for all the practical superiority of 30-06 in dropping threats, I seriously think that my 20 gauge with birdshot would be more practical because of lower report and less overpenetration. However, I was also *un*favorably impressed by the lack of penetration of shot should I ever want to get an opponent behind some light cover (i.e. a corner of a residential concrete wall :)). I am undecided at this point but, given that I am moving to a building made of ferroconcrete, an intermediate rifle round doesn't sound excessive.

I also heard an opinion from a man I consider an expert (i.e. former Mossad trainer, current CIA and police trainer) that he'd try to land a hit of any caliber ASAP and that would often enough upset the opponent's aim long enough for him to repeat the dose. That pretty much argues for a good pointable firearms and even a 20 gauge fits the bill.

I do plan to get a few boxes of varmint ammo and check, just for kicks. Would be nice to know if it feeds in my AR and if it groups well...
 
Back when I attended utep I loaned one of the first ruger redhawks 51/2 barrel to a good friend who was experiencing problems. He was practicing dry firing in his apt. with the revolver unloaded when someone knocked on his door, he loads the pistol goes and checks, wrong apt, he sits down continues watching what show is on the screen changes he graps that 44mag and puts one round through 5 interior walls the mirror above the dresser and the bullet lodges in the brick and mortar of the outer wall of the adjacent apartment, which was unoccupied. Ive punched 25-06 through steel plate, Ive shot poppers with my ar at 100yds and they didnt penetrate...........its definitely a concern----Ive never used the tap or the varmint bullets , but Ive used corbon in my pistols and im satisfied with that. At a gun store I worked at the owner kept 7 1/2 shot the first two rounds in one of the stores hot guns, the counters faced a very busy street, his opinion was that for the first 20' or so its a large frangible round and not likely to penetrate the glass wall and still have significant force left to damage passerbys. It might be different in some ones home....fubsy...
 
Well, now that we've all run around in circles... :)

In several previous go-rounds on this subject, I've commented--and will stand by my idea--that if I lived in an apartment, and had to worry about neighbors, I'd consider 1) a relatively low-powered pistol (.380?) with Glasers or hollowpoints; or 2) a 20-gauge with #9 Skeet.

I would also give some thought to learning of my neighbors' floorplans, where they slept, etc., so I could possibly give some thought to when not to shoot, or from what locations would it be safe to shoot.

There just ain't no magic.

Art
 
For burglar protection in an apartment in a heavily built up complex, the only answer is a .50 HB M2 with 10,000 rounds of ammo. You should rip off a belt or two at the slightest sound. Don't worry about where the bullets go; those fools didn't deserve to live anyway.

Yes, I am being sarcastic, but I think some of the folks here are just being a bit unrealistic and have seen a few too many movies. The stuff that happens to Bruce Willis ONLY happens to Bruce Willis and it ONLY happens because the script writer says it happens.

Art's choices sound pretty sensible. My home defense gun is a .45 auto and 2 loaded magazines. I am not expecting an invasion by 5000 screaming terrorist fanatics. If it happens, of course, you can say "we told you so".

Jim
 
Maybe we should all mark our walls every 16" so we can be sure the BG's in front of a studd before firing. ;)

I know a guy who did penetration test with a 12ga loaded with birdshot. The plastci wad penetrated two layers of sheet rock. With the possible exception of fragniables, any round will have a penetration problem.
 
There's a factor to .223 penetration that I haven't seen mentioned yet, velocity. The light .223 loads like the 40 grain hollowpoints do tend to fragment when they hit an obstacle. It's because of the high velocity of the round and the light weight of the round. Using a 14.5" barreled carbine will probably give poorer fragmentatio than using a 16" or 20" barrel just because he velocity is lower. I'm not up on my .223 ballistics. Anyone know what the velocity dofference is between 14.5", 16", and 20" barrels?
 
TBeck, all I know to tell you is to go to a reloading manual and check the data. In general, there is a loss of some 50 feet per second in muzzle velocity, per inch of barrel cut back.

(Many tests through the decades consistently indicate that for such as .270 or '06, etc., the loss is more nearly 70 ft/sec/inch.)

FWIW, Art
 
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