UPS and shipping guns.

Aguila Blanca Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Written notification to the common carrier is required by law when shipping ANY firearm interstate to a nonlicensee.

For nonlicensees, you would be admitting to a violation of Federal law in writing.
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But what we're discussing here is returning a firearm to the manufacturer for a warranty issue.
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I know what the discussion is, but was replying to:
Sevens: "I'm light years from a lawyer but that seems to read that the requirement for notifying the carrier is if you plan to ship to a non-FFL, which I believe isn't legal for handguns but may be for long guns inside your state"
Failing to notify a common carrier when shipping INTRASTATE to another nonlicensee may violate the carriers tariffs but does not violate Federal law.
 
Aguila Blanca Quote:
It contains at least one technical error:


Quote:
Who can you ship to?
All interstate shipments of firearms must be addressed to a licensed firearms dealer (often called an FFL). The exceptions are:
1. when you ship to yourself at an address in another state and
2. the return of a firearm you sent to a manufacturer to be repaired.
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The law, which I quoted in post #6, doesn't limit to whom a nonlicensed person can ship a firearm to licensed dealers only. The list includes "licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors."
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It's not a technical error. ATF allows 01FFL Dealer, 02FFL Pawnbroker, 07FFL Manufacturer and 08FFL Importers......to deal in firearms (ie sell or transfer to a nonlicensee) Many "dealers" will hold an 07FFL because it allows more flexibility in what they can do as far as gunsmithing and assembly of firearms.
And your citation of Federal law leaves out one very important restriction....you cannot ship nonC&R firearm's to an 03FFL Collector of Curios & Relics.
 
osbornk I recently took a broken TCP pistol to my FFL (Pawn Shop) to send it back to Taurus for repair. He boxed it up for me, put his return address on the box and sent me to the post office with it. They weighed the box and I verified it did not contain a liquid or hazardous materials. They charged me $11.06 and it arrived in Miami within 48 hours.
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Your dealer is an idiot.
1. Only licensed dealers and manufacturers can ship firearms other than rifles or shotguns via USPS.
2. A handgun or any firearm capable of being concealed on the body (frames, receiver, AR lowers, certain other firearms) are classified as "handguns" by the USPS.
3. When handguns are mailed the dealer is required to submit a USPS Form 1508 "Statement of a Shipper of Firearms". The dealer certifies under penalty of law that the shipment is a customary trade shipment.
If you aren't a licensed dealer or manufacturer you can't sign that form.
 
It has been a while since I shipped a gun, my latest experiences were;
Snotty UPS clerk.
Helpful FedEx clerk (at very high rates)
Hysterical postal clerk, had to get the postmaster to accept my FFL's 1508 form.
 
Sevens: So where did we land on this? Is the quoted text wrong?

The way it reads, there is no Federal law requiring Joe Lunchbox to inform UPS or FedEx that there is a firearm in the box so long as it's destination is one of "licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors"
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Again, no Federal law requires notification to the carrier unless you are shipping INTERSTATE to a nonlicensee.

If you are shipping interstate to a nonlicensee, you must inform the carrier in writing.

If shipping interstate to a licensee, no notification is required by Federal law.

Note that UPS and FedEx policies and tariffs require you to notify them whenever shipping ANY firearm. Violate that policy and you will get nothing on a claim for loss, damage, theft, etc....but you do not violate Federal law.
 
Jim Watson It has been a while since I shipped a gun, my latest experiences were;
Snotty UPS clerk.
Helpful FedEx clerk (at very high rates)
Hysterical postal clerk, had to get the postmaster to accept my FFL's 1508 form.
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If you aren't a licensed dealer you have no business being in possession of a Form 1508. Your FFL is an idiot.

No ATF regulation allows a licensee to hand back a firearm to a nonlicensee in order to ship or mail.
 
UPS and FedEx tariffs require the shipper to tell the counterperson if the package contains a firearm. The tariffs are part of the contract between the shipper (you) and the carrier. So failing to comply with the tariffs gives the carrier legal grounds to deny a claim if the package is lost or damaged.
 
Couple things in play here . . .

Let me point out there is a difference between UPS (United Parcel Service) and USPS (United States Postal Service). I was dealing with the UPS.

The gun in question and the policy quoted to me at the local UPS outlet specifically said "broken gun" although I'm not so sure what difference that would make.

Any way I got word from Ruger today that they have it and I should hear about the repair soon.

Life is good.
Prof Young
 
Query to Dog Town Tom

Thanks for providing the UPS content. Very helpful.

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making. In the UPS rules, in the first paragraph (i) says an individual may UPS a firearm to a manufacturer. Am I missing something here.

Thanks again for the content.

Life is good.
Prof Young
 
Prof. Young, we have established that individuals may ship firearms by UPS. The point is the fine print:

  1. You have to ship from an actual UPS depot, not a UPS Store
  2. You have to ship by expedited shipping
  3. You have to notify UPS (verbally) that the package contains a firearm
If I understood your early post correctly, your shipment did not comply with #1 or #2.

The drone at your local UPS Store may have thought a broken gun isn't a gun. Federal law would disagree.
 
Prof Young …..I'm not sure I understand the point you are making. In the UPS rules, in the first paragraph (i) says an individual may UPS a firearm to a manufacturer. Am I missing something here.
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Yes, keep reading.

From the link I posted on page 1:
Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup®, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes or UPS On-Call Pickup®, and may not be tendered to or dropped off at locations of The UPS Store®, any third party retailer, or any UPS Access Point™ location.

When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.

See the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service - United States and the UPS Rate and Service Guide in effect at the time of shipping ("UPS Terms") for information regarding firearm and ammunition shipments.
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A final thought on this somewhat confusing issue . . .

My UPS location is in a hardware store which makes it sound like a UPS location that should not take in guns for shipping. However; until recently this store sold guns and ammo. Maybe they still have some kind of recognition from UPS that they are allowed to ship guns.

Life is good.
Pro Young
 
Prof Young My UPS location is in a hardware store which makes it sound like a UPS location that should not take in guns for shipping. However; until recently this store sold guns and ammo. Maybe they still have some kind of recognition from UPS that they are allowed to ship guns.
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When UPS says this:
Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup®, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes or UPS On-Call Pickup®, and may not be tendered to or dropped off at locations of The UPS Store®, any third party retailer, or any UPS Access Point™ location.
They mean exactly that.
Your "UPS location in a hardware store" is a third party retailer and specifically not allowed by UPS to accept firearm shipments of any kind. They are not owned or operated by UPS.

No counter clerk, whether an employee of UPS, Inc, The UPS Store, or Bobs Guns n Donuts can alter or modify the carriers tariff. Just because they accepted your firearm doesn't mean UPS, Inc will honor a claim for damages, loss or theft. In fact they will deny it and point out the above posted on their website. Then you'll get to argue with your hardware store.
 
Prof. Young -

The UPS tariffs also say:

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921, will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®.
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Did you local hardware store/UPS outlet mention that, or did they ship your gun by the cheapest method?
 
OneFreeTexan said:
Wouldn’t the local hardware store, if they sell guns, be considered an FFL, and can ship to another FFL, or manufacturer.???
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Who can ship to whom is one question. How they can ship is a different question.

In this case, Prof Young said his hardware store/UPS outlet used to sell guns. That suggests they are not currently a licensed FFL. It's not a question of if they would be "considered" an FFL. Either they have an FFL, or they don't.

But let's suppose they are. As an FFL, they can ship a gun to another FFL. In fact, as an FFL they could even walk into a post office and mail a handgun to another FFL, or to a manufacturer. But ... we're asking about UPS. It gets muddy, because the hardware store would be wearing two hats: (1) the shipper, and (2) the UPS agent.

What does the UPS tariff say about where you can ship guns?

Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup®, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes or UPS On-Call Pickup®, and may not be tendered to or dropped off at locations of The UPS Store®, any third party retailer, or any UPS Access Point™ location.
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It's a hardware store, so it's not a UPS Store. So it's probably classified as a third party retailer. And the UPS tariffs say that firearms may not be "tendered" for shipment at any third party retailer. So I think the answer to your question is "No." Not because they do or don't have an FFL, or because they are or aren't shipping to an FFL ... simply because the UPS rules say no to shipping firearms from third party retailer locations.

UPS wants firearms to be under their control all the way. A UPS Store or a retail store that handles UPS shipments is an independent franchisee. UPS doesn't have direct control of their premises or their employees.
 
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