UPS and shipping guns.

[Prof Young]

So was on the phone with Ruger today about base pin problem in my Super Blackhawk 44 (see separate post in The Smithy) and Ruger rep tells me that to send the gun back to them via UPS will require an FFL number. She says that UPS won't take it without that number and recommended that I Fed ex it to them.

I've sent guns to manufacturer for work with UPS before, so I call the local UPS out let. Lady there looks it up and says that private owners may UPS a broken gun back to the manufacturer, no FFL required. So that's what I did.

Thoughts and comments welcome.

Life is good.
Prof Young

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I have shipped guns back to manufacturers by UPS, and I'm not an FFL. Ruger rep must have been having a bad day.

 

[Scorch]

private owners may UPS a broken gun back to the manufacturer, no FFL required

True, but it is supposed to be shipped Second Day Air, which can get pretty expensive. I offer my customers the option of me shipping it FFL to FFL, so it can go UPS Ground, it works for a lot of people and saves them about $30.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

True, but it is supposed to be shipped Second Day Air, which can get pretty expensive.

True. And FedEx has a similar requirement.

And, before someone suggests just calling it "machine parts" or "samples" or something like that to avoid the more expensive shipping, federal law requires that the shipper of a firearm notify the carrier that it's a firearm. So if you want to break the law and play that game, it's on you. Good luck getting reimbursed by insurance if the package is lost or damaged in transit.

 

[Prof Young]

Hmm . . . lotta information in play here . . .

Place I shipped from said nothing about second day air. I shipped Monday and it's supposed to get there Thursday so . . .

May just do some research on this whole thing.

Where can I find the info about fed law requiring notification?

And NO, it would be a huge mistake to pretend that it's just machine parts.

Life is good.
Prof Young

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Prof Young: It's in 18 U.S. Code 922, § (e):

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

 

[dogtown tom]

Prof Young …. Ruger rep tells me that to send the gun back to them via UPS will require an FFL number.

No such UPS policy exists.

She says that UPS won't take it without that number and recommended that I Fed ex it to them.

Sure they will, I do it at least twice a week. I've had my FFL for eleven years and have never had to provide UPS or FedEx with anyone's FFL#.
Clerks that tell you that are inventing their own rules.

I've sent guns to manufacturer for work with UPS before, so I call the local UPS out let. Lady there looks it up and says that private owners may UPS a broken gun back to the manufacturer, no FFL required. So that's what I did.

You called your local UPS Store? If so, she's a nitwit, as UPS tariff expressly prohibits shipping firearms from a UPS Store or other third party retailer. While UPS will accept a firearm shipment to any FFL, you have to follow their policies. https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-center/packaging-and-supplies/special-care-shipments/firearms.page?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun

 

[Aguila Blanca]

UPS policies on shipping firearms:

https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-center/packaging-and-supplies/special-care-shipments/firearms.page

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921, will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®.

Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup®, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes or UPS On-Call Pickup®, and may not be tendered to or dropped off at locations of The UPS Store®, any third party retailer, or any UPS Access Point™ location.

When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.

 

[Sevens]

I'm a bit confused, Aguila Blanca, for the text you quoted specifically says "to persons OTHER than licensed importer, dealers, manufacturers..."

I'm light years from a lawyer but that seems to read that the requirement for notifying the carrier is if you plan to ship to a non-FFL, which I believe isn't legal for handguns but may be for long guns inside your state of residence.

 

[Sevens]

Need to add that yes, if you should choose to ship via UPS/FedEx and not tell them it is a firearm, I'd expect your insurance for loss to be zero, but I don't read this is illegal.

 

[FITASC]

Why didn't Ruger send you a prepaid shipping label?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I'm a bit confused, Aguila Blanca, for the text you quoted specifically says "to persons OTHER than licensed importer, dealers, manufacturers..."

I'm light years from a lawyer but that seems to read that the requirement for notifying the carrier is if you plan to ship to a non-FFL, which I believe isn't legal for handguns but may be for long guns inside your state of residence.

Good point. That does seem to be what it says. I have not encountered it being explained that way, but you may very well be correct. And the UPS policy seems only to require verbal notice, not written notice.

 

[dogtown tom]

Sevens I'm a bit confused, Aguila Blanca, for the text you quoted specifically says "to persons OTHER than licensed importer, dealers, manufacturers..."

I'm light years from a lawyer but that seems to read that the requirement for notifying the carrier is if you plan to ship to a non-FFL, which I believe isn't legal for handguns but may be for long guns inside your state

Written notification to the common carrier is required by law when shipping ANY firearm interstate to a nonlicensee.

For nonlicensees, you would be admitting to a violation of Federal law in writing.

Neither FedEx or UPS will accept interstate or intrastate shipments nonlicensee to nonlicensee anyway.

Sadly, there is a five year old sticky at the top of this forum that addresses "how to ship firearms" that few bother to read. Brilliantly written by the way.

Why is it sad? Because it's easy to violate Federal laws regarding firearms and very easy to violate USPS regs on mailing firearms. Get caught doing it incorrectly and you'll never need to worry about shipping your guns again.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Written notification to the common carrier is required by law when shipping ANY firearm interstate to a nonlicensee.

For nonlicensees, you would be admitting to a violation of Federal law in writing.

But what we're discussing here is returning a firearm to the manufacturer for a warranty issue.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Sadly, there is a five year old sticky at the top of this forum that addresses "how to ship firearms" that few bother to read. Brilliantly written by the way.

It contains at least one technical error:

Who can you ship to?
All interstate shipments of firearms must be addressed to a licensed firearms dealer (often called an FFL). The exceptions are:
1. when you ship to yourself at an address in another state and
2. the return of a firearm you sent to a manufacturer to be repaired.

The law, which I quoted in post #6, doesn't limit to whom a nonlicensed person can ship a firearm to licensed dealers only. The list includes "licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors."

 

[Frank Ettin]

...doesn't limit to whom a nonlicensed person can ship a firearm to licensed dealers only. The list includes "licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors."....

Of course all those folks are FFLs of one sort or another.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Of course all those folks are FFLs of one sort or another.

Of course. That was my point -- there are federal firearms licensees (FFLs) other than dealers.

 

[osbornk]

Remove

 

[Frank Ettin]

I recently took a broken TCP pistol to my FFL (Pawn Shop) to send it back to Taurus for repair. He boxed it up for me, put his return address on the box and sent me to the post office with it. They weighed the box and I verified it did not contain a liquid or hazardous materials.....

Looks like postal regulations might have been violated -- see 432.24:

432.24 Certificate of Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

A federal firearms licensee manufacturer, dealer, or importer ...must file with the Postmaster a statement on PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer, dealer, or importer of firearms. The mailer must also state that the parcels containing handguns, or parts and components of handguns under 432.2d, are being mailed in customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of their knowledge the addressees are licensed manufacturers, dealers, or importers of firearms. Registered Mail service is recommended....

See also 18 USC 1715 (emphasis added):

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe.

Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

 

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
And, before someone suggests just calling it "machine parts" or "samples" or something like that to avoid the more expensive shipping, federal law requires that the shipper of a firearm notify the carrier that it's a firearm. So if you want to break the law and play that game, it's on you.

So where did we land on this? Is the quoted text wrong?

The way it reads, there is no Federal law requiring Joe Lunchbox to inform UPS or FedEx that there is a firearm in the box so long as it's destination is one of "licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors"