"Updating" the M1 Garand for modern combat?
- Thread starter MatthewVanitas
- Start date
I have owned Mini-14s, AKs, Fals, ARs, lever action rifles. By far, my favorite gun is the Garand. If I were going to battle, I would want the Garand. Here are my reasons:
1. Shoots a full size battle round. A compromise round like the .223 or 7.62x39 would be great IF I could own a select fire weapon. I can't.
2. En-bloc clips are faster to reload than magazines.
3. 200 rounds of 30-06 in en-blocs weighs less than 200 rounds of .308 in 20 round mags. Also, more compact.
4. I can leave an en-bloc clip loaded forever.
5. My Garand is more reliable in field conditions than my ARs. I owned 4. All four of my guns were prone to short cylce. GI mags and good ammo. Sorry AR fans. Mine, and a multitude of others in Carbine classes I have attended have not proven to be reliable
6. You can get lower to the ground with a Garand than a magazine fed gun.
7. The Garand was the gun we used when America used to win wars.
8. You can bayonet someone and it will not break.
9. I just like them.
- These are just personal opinions....
1. Shoots a full size battle round. A compromise round like the .223 or 7.62x39 would be great IF I could own a select fire weapon. I can't.
2. En-bloc clips are faster to reload than magazines.
3. 200 rounds of 30-06 in en-blocs weighs less than 200 rounds of .308 in 20 round mags. Also, more compact.
4. I can leave an en-bloc clip loaded forever.
5. My Garand is more reliable in field conditions than my ARs. I owned 4. All four of my guns were prone to short cylce. GI mags and good ammo. Sorry AR fans. Mine, and a multitude of others in Carbine classes I have attended have not proven to be reliable
6. You can get lower to the ground with a Garand than a magazine fed gun.
7. The Garand was the gun we used when America used to win wars.
8. You can bayonet someone and it will not break.
9. I just like them.
- These are just personal opinions....
MatthewVanitas
New member
Cheapo, that is a pretty slick idea, somewhat similar to a few I've pondered on. It would be somewhat doable if there were a proper receiver already on the market that would be adaptable. I don't suppose an SKS receiver could take the pressure of a 6.5 Swede round, could it? And an M1 receiver would be unnecessarily heavy and long for the cartridge, would it not?
Could the SKS action take it? Can an SKS receiver be used as the basis for something decent, or is the receiver itself contributing to it's inherent inaccuracy?
Regarding Tanker Garands and the like, that was sort of what I was imagining, but lightened if possible, and with a compensator flashsuppressor/muzzle brake, which takes care of both recoil and flash, like on the M16-A2. I heard the flash caused by the original muzzle break was why the design was scrapped in tests.
I'm not so keen on the Scoutscope concept for military purposes, though it seems slick for some sorts of hunting. I'd much prefer just a sturdy dial-in aperture sight. Anything that can break, will.
Take care all,
-LCpl Matthew Boris
------------------
--Capitalism isn't a program or a system like "socialism," but a description of reality like "the Pythagorean theorem." Deal with it.
Could the SKS action take it? Can an SKS receiver be used as the basis for something decent, or is the receiver itself contributing to it's inherent inaccuracy?
Regarding Tanker Garands and the like, that was sort of what I was imagining, but lightened if possible, and with a compensator flashsuppressor/muzzle brake, which takes care of both recoil and flash, like on the M16-A2. I heard the flash caused by the original muzzle break was why the design was scrapped in tests.
I'm not so keen on the Scoutscope concept for military purposes, though it seems slick for some sorts of hunting. I'd much prefer just a sturdy dial-in aperture sight. Anything that can break, will.
Take care all,
-LCpl Matthew Boris
------------------
--Capitalism isn't a program or a system like "socialism," but a description of reality like "the Pythagorean theorem." Deal with it.
I will gladly take a decent 30-06 bolt gun with a scope on it in favor of any of the semiautos produced in the last 50 years, simply because I like to stand back a bit from what I am shooting at. 
Also, you can shoot one/load one which is near impossible with most semiauto designs.
NO clips to lose, no magazines to carry, just rifle and ammo. Simple effective, and deadly. Look what the Germans were able to do with nothing but a bunch of Mausers...
You might also want to look at a .303 Enfield. Ten round mags, easy to reload with mag in place, decent ballistics. Excellent accuracy is possible, ask all of the dead russians that didn't leave Afghanistan.
But If I have to have a semiauto, give me a FAL every time. If you want to stay low, use shorter magazines.
Also, you can shoot one/load one which is near impossible with most semiauto designs.
NO clips to lose, no magazines to carry, just rifle and ammo. Simple effective, and deadly. Look what the Germans were able to do with nothing but a bunch of Mausers...
You might also want to look at a .303 Enfield. Ten round mags, easy to reload with mag in place, decent ballistics. Excellent accuracy is possible, ask all of the dead russians that didn't leave Afghanistan.
But If I have to have a semiauto, give me a FAL every time. If you want to stay low, use shorter magazines.
Nestor Rivera
New member
sounds like you might want a French 49/56 it is a nice size with out pistol grip may be loaded 1 at a time or stripers or change 10 round mags. I perefer the 7.5x54 French for collecting or the .308Nato for field use.
As a plus for $300 you can add a side scope.
As a plus for $300 you can add a side scope.
BTT with an expansion
Part of what I would want in creating a more ideal weapon is a blend of these two opposing goals:
1. Increased mag capacity within a package of the same bulk; and
2. Increased power and downrange performance (less wind drift) as compared to the 5.56mm/M852 round.
So, just necking the 7.62 NATO down to a smaller bore size doesn't do the job. It would seem that a case diameter the same as the .40 *&*/10mm case would provide just enough extra powder capacity over the 5.56mm case diameter, to make this work.
Something like 25 rounds in the length of an M14 magazine, or 10-12 rounds in an enbloc clip perhaps 1/2-inch taller than the 8-rd .30-06 unit.
Anyone know how the merits of a 6mm compare to those of a 6.5mm? Seems to me like a 6.5mm would need to go all the way up to a 100-gr bullet to match the short-range trajectory of the 5.56 mm while keeping the long-range energy retention (relative to original ME) of the .30 calibers.
Part of what I would want in creating a more ideal weapon is a blend of these two opposing goals:
1. Increased mag capacity within a package of the same bulk; and
2. Increased power and downrange performance (less wind drift) as compared to the 5.56mm/M852 round.
So, just necking the 7.62 NATO down to a smaller bore size doesn't do the job. It would seem that a case diameter the same as the .40 *&*/10mm case would provide just enough extra powder capacity over the 5.56mm case diameter, to make this work.
Something like 25 rounds in the length of an M14 magazine, or 10-12 rounds in an enbloc clip perhaps 1/2-inch taller than the 8-rd .30-06 unit.
Anyone know how the merits of a 6mm compare to those of a 6.5mm? Seems to me like a 6.5mm would need to go all the way up to a 100-gr bullet to match the short-range trajectory of the 5.56 mm while keeping the long-range energy retention (relative to original ME) of the .30 calibers.
Badger Arms
New member
Two updates. One is the Smith Enterprises Muzzle Brake. The second is a recoil pad. Matt, I don't know how big of a guy you are, but the Garand is easy for me to lug around. The brake makes it shoot like a .243 and the recoil pad means more length and a softer kick.
Up here in The Great White North, a Garand is the closest I'm gonna get to an M1A or M14. I was thinking of taking a Danish lend-lease return gun with synthetic Ramline stock($200 CDN), and having a Fulton .308 barrel($300 CDN) installed($100 CDN). Add a recoil pad, and I've got a pretty handy, 8 lb full-house battle rifle. I should ask the local Garand smith what it would cost to do a chop of a few inches to allow for a muzzle brake. What does "tankerizing" entail besides shortening the op-rod? If I'm having it built, I might as well have it built compact.
Clead.
P.S. Yes, that's $130 US for a Garand
The "beater" Garands with wood stocks are $100 US! Almost compensates for our crappy gun laws!
Clead.
P.S. Yes, that's $130 US for a Garand
The "beater" Garands with wood stocks are $100 US! Almost compensates for our crappy gun laws!Badger Arms
New member
Clead, I've got a Ramline stock I could sell you cheap. Don't have the handguards for it, but the stock is new. If you're interested, email me.
Install a Wilson 308 barrel in a Garand and you've got a great 308 battle rifle. The long barrel on a garand dosent really need a flashhider but if you want one you could add a Vortex legally.
Converting Garands to 308 makes a lot of sense, the ammo is much cheaper and more availabel the 30/06 and it is a more accurate round.
If you want something besides iron sights you could get on of the weaver rail S&K side mounts and mount a red dot scope.
Converting Garands to 308 makes a lot of sense, the ammo is much cheaper and more availabel the 30/06 and it is a more accurate round.
If you want something besides iron sights you could get on of the weaver rail S&K side mounts and mount a red dot scope.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
You guys are reinventing the FAL.
LOL - this is amusing.
When your all done talking about it... head over to DSA's site and take a look at what you invented.
LOL - this is amusing.
When your all done talking about it... head over to DSA's site and take a look at what you invented.
George, unfortunately, the FAL and its variants are on he Canadian gov't's sh*t(banned) list. That law was passed in 1995 and grandfathered people who had them at the time, not the firearms themselves. The same goes for the 1978 law concerning full-auto stuff. If you had 'em then, then you're a lifetime full-auto owner able to buy and sell with law enforcment and military suppliers at their regular prices, if not, tough luck. It's funny that way: Canadian grandfathered full-auto owners have it way better than class 3 guys in the states, however anyone in Canada who wants one now can NEVER EVER get one, same as with handguns that are either .25 or .32 calibre or have a barrel less than 104 mm long. We grandfathered the people, you guys grandfathered the guns. We could almost say up here,"Are you pre-ban?" lol. Anyway hope that clears things up. An updated Garand is about the closest thing I can get to an FAL
Clead
Clead
FAL Doesn't Quite Make It
Look again at the thread and see all of the elements that *aren't* in the FAL. I betcha a 6.5mm round could be made to have the same light armor penetration at 500 yards as the 7.62 NATO, in both ball and AP configurations.
Do it with lighter weight of ammo AND rifle, and you could conceivable improve on the FAL, perhaps with less overall length...
Look again at the thread and see all of the elements that *aren't* in the FAL. I betcha a 6.5mm round could be made to have the same light armor penetration at 500 yards as the 7.62 NATO, in both ball and AP configurations.
Do it with lighter weight of ammo AND rifle, and you could conceivable improve on the FAL, perhaps with less overall length...
I got an itty bitty question...
Just what makes modern combat different than combat in WW2 or Korea? Ask any vet from the Italy campaigns about urban combat. Ask Korean vets about long distance shooting. I just don't understand what's so new that we need to reinvent the wheel here.
Aside from the obvious possible lightening(alloys and composites) and shortening(to .308) of the rifle, what else do you really need?
I'd like to hear what other people think...
Guess I'll start another thread...
[Edited by artech on 12-05-2000 at 05:46 PM]
Just what makes modern combat different than combat in WW2 or Korea? Ask any vet from the Italy campaigns about urban combat. Ask Korean vets about long distance shooting. I just don't understand what's so new that we need to reinvent the wheel here.
Aside from the obvious possible lightening(alloys and composites) and shortening(to .308) of the rifle, what else do you really need?
I'd like to hear what other people think...
Guess I'll start another thread...
[Edited by artech on 12-05-2000 at 05:46 PM]
Robert the41MagFan
New member
Think that this is about as good a M1A as you can get.
This one is equipped with Fiberglass stock, N.M. barrel, sling, scope pad,Brookfield precision scope mounts & upgrade kit, Leopold Mark 4 rings, Leopold Vari X3 3.5-10x40mm long range M3 matte w/ Mil Dot (Leopold # 51850).
Robert
This one is equipped with Fiberglass stock, N.M. barrel, sling, scope pad,Brookfield precision scope mounts & upgrade kit, Leopold Mark 4 rings, Leopold Vari X3 3.5-10x40mm long range M3 matte w/ Mil Dot (Leopold # 51850).
Robert
MatthewVanitas
New member
As the thread originator, we have gone _way_ off track...
With all due respect to parties involved, I'm agreeing with Artech and Cheapo in that many folks are entirely missing the point here.
Dissatisfaction _with_ the FAL and M1A is what provoked the thread. While I haven't fired either, I'm picked them up and toyed with them, and thought about their pros and cons, and specifically listed them in the very beginning of the thread.
Many of the rifles mentioned above are well-respected rifles, many have the pistol grip or extended detatchable magazine which I'm trying to avoid in the first place.
The best suggestions mentioned have been those involving shortened Garands in .308, for meeting the qualifications I originally set forth. Someone forwarded me a link to this gunsmith:
http://www.gunwork.com/prods.htm
This item, without scope, and maybe adding a bayo lug, is about exactly what I'm looking for. Short, 30 cal, no detatchable mag or pistol grip (not for PC reasons, but I believe they are liabilities in combat, as noted in beginning of thread).
Until they invent some super-durable scope, there's no way in hell I'm carrying one in combat; almost as bad as any essential accessory requiring batteries.
There have been many good suggestions for similar traditional-stocked, internal mag rifles, but on a short semi action in 6.5mm or similar caliber, which are very slick ideas, but beyond my abilities to acquire at this point. I'm debating getting a CMP Danish Garand, and having the basic barrel cut and op-rod shortening, .308 barrel settup. The so called "tankerizing" process.
Just wanted to let folks know where I'm coming from.
Take care all,
-LCpl Matthew Boris
With all due respect to parties involved, I'm agreeing with Artech and Cheapo in that many folks are entirely missing the point here.
Dissatisfaction _with_ the FAL and M1A is what provoked the thread. While I haven't fired either, I'm picked them up and toyed with them, and thought about their pros and cons, and specifically listed them in the very beginning of the thread.
Many of the rifles mentioned above are well-respected rifles, many have the pistol grip or extended detatchable magazine which I'm trying to avoid in the first place.
The best suggestions mentioned have been those involving shortened Garands in .308, for meeting the qualifications I originally set forth. Someone forwarded me a link to this gunsmith:
http://www.gunwork.com/prods.htm
This item, without scope, and maybe adding a bayo lug, is about exactly what I'm looking for. Short, 30 cal, no detatchable mag or pistol grip (not for PC reasons, but I believe they are liabilities in combat, as noted in beginning of thread).
Until they invent some super-durable scope, there's no way in hell I'm carrying one in combat; almost as bad as any essential accessory requiring batteries.
There have been many good suggestions for similar traditional-stocked, internal mag rifles, but on a short semi action in 6.5mm or similar caliber, which are very slick ideas, but beyond my abilities to acquire at this point. I'm debating getting a CMP Danish Garand, and having the basic barrel cut and op-rod shortening, .308 barrel settup. The so called "tankerizing" process.
Just wanted to let folks know where I'm coming from.
Take care all,
-LCpl Matthew Boris