Update: What is the current general consensus on carrying a modified handgun?

With trigger mods becoming more prominent, are you comfortable carrying with a modified trigger?

  • Yes, I am comfortable carrying a modified trigger, today.

    Votes: 52 58.4%
  • No, I am not comfortable carrying a modified trigger, today.

    Votes: 37 41.6%

  • Total voters
    89
  • Poll closed .
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Take a look at NYC's hit ratio since they've gone to the 'safe' 10+# triggers; the only people actually safer are the people they've shot at:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire.html

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...new-york-cops-shoot-84-bullets-hit-perp-once/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-undercover-police-officer-shoots-bystander/

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/


Anybody think a criminal or civil prosecution for shooting an innocent might be problematic?


Larry
 
I carry a circa 1960s Colt light weight Cobra 38. The little snubbie was carried by a detective. He had the hammer bobbed and a trigger job done on it. Great gun.
 
A shooting may lead to an inquiry about firearm modifications. It is, or at least, should be, safer to carry an unmodified handgun for self defense. The gun will be examined, including examination for modifications, and the absence of any modifications may help the shooter's defense if the shooter is charged with any offense. Modifications may be great for target or hunting handguns, but probably not for a carried self defense handgun.
 
People generally fall into two camps. Those who reject any answer more complicated than "Do" or "Don't" and those who understand that sometimes simple questions have complicated answers.

If you're one of the people who believe that questions must have simple answers, then the most accurate answer is "Don't".

If you're willing to accept a more complicated answer, then the answer is: "It depends."

It depends on a number of things:

1. How it was modified? Does the modification smooth the trigger? Make it heavier? Make the pull shorter? Does it disable or alter the function of any of the safeties of the pistol? Some modifications are pretty bulletproof. Others could open a can of worms.

2. What was it like initially? If the pull was unusually heavy for a firearm of that type, then having it changed to meet the typical spec is likely pretty safe. If it was already typical, then it may be necessary to explain how the modification really made it better. The explanation will need to be so simple that someone who's not interested in firearms can easily understand it.

3. How did it end up/how does it compare to the triggers on other similar pistols intended for LE or self-defense use? Pretty self-explanatory. If it's obviously atypical for a self-defense/LE pistol of its general type, then one should be prepared to justify the difference. Some results might be easy to justify, others could be very difficult, or perhaps impossible to justify.

4. Who did the modification? If you sent it back to the manufacturer to remedy an unusually heavy pull, or to remedy some other problem, then it's obviously going to be harder for someone to argue that the change was performed improperly or that it resulted in an unsafe configuration. If you bought a part off the internet and put it in yourself, that might not sound nearly as safe or proper to a jury. Expect to have to provide a good explanation--or to pay an expert witness to do it for you.

5. What were the other circumstances of the shooting? It is possible for the circumstances of the shooting to be so blatantly obviously justified that no one is ever going to question anything about the gun. If you happen to be on the scene when a mass murderer slaughters the security detail and tries to shoot a supreme court justice during a live tv interview and you stop him with your carry gun, it's pretty unlikely that there will be any questions about what kind of gun you used or how it had been modified. On the other hand, if the circumstances of the shooting are such that there's some room for doubt about its justification, then one could reasonably expect that issues that might otherwise be glossed over might get a center stage treatment.

Things to keep in mind:

1. If firearm modifications become a topic during a trial, no one is going to care much about your opinions on what's safe or reasonable when it comes to firearm triggers. That will be decided by expert witnesses, manufacturer recommendations, etc.

2. Your fate will be decided by a bunch of people who learned about firearms from watching movies and tv shows. You won't be arguing your case against a bunch of gun enthusiasts.

3. You'll be arguing against a person whose profession is making people look guilty and that person will be performing for the benefit of people who have never sat in your position and don't have your knowledge of firearms.

4. It's important not to focus exclusively on criminal prosecution. Civil prosecution may not take your freedom away, but it can take virtually everything else away from you. It's also much harder to defend against a civil suit since the standard of proof is much easier.

5. If the modification makes it easier to argue that your self-defense shooting was more likely to be an accidental shooting than an intentional one, this could be a very attractive option for the basis of a civil suit. Depending on the circumstances, an accidental shooting may bring your insurance company and their deep pockets into the suit as a defendant alongside you. Insurance companies pay for accidents--but usually not for intentional acts.

*****
Bonus material:

Bob: Let's say I am attacked by three persons acting irrationally. One large and strong unarmed person with a bad limp, one very small person with poor eyesight confined to a wheelchair and armed with a firearm and one medium-sized person with a baseball bat and a prosthetic leg. So since I'm carrying my super-modified race gun with the 1lb trigger, I shoot the glasses off the guy in the wheelchair so he can't see at all. The guy with the baseball bat trips on the glasses and falls down. Now, if the large unarmed guy with the bad limp comes at me slowly, would I be justified in shooting him too if my only avenue of escape is to cross a road with a medium level of traffic which could endanger my life?

Bill: Wait, you're using a gun with a modified trigger for self-defense? Don't you know that experts say that could cause problems in court?

Bob: Yeah, but I don't care--why should I waste my time worrying about something hypothetical like that!​
 
So with trigger modifications becoming more and more prominent, would you feel more comfortable carrying a modified trigger?

I voted no, for taking one more thing off the table in a possible after the fact legal review. The better answer is "it depends".
 
Unless the mod made the trigger heavier on a striker fired gun, no way I'd carry it.
Indeed. With a DAO, there's a reason the default is a 6lb plus trigger with moderate length of pull.

Most trigger jobs make the trigger lighter, crisper, with a shorter reset etc. These are great for competition firearms (one of mine is sub 3 lb) but not not preferred for a carry, unless you have an active safety (1911, etc.).

My $.02 anyway
 
No... though others have stated unless those modifications result in a firearm less likely to fire (such as a heavier trigger) and even then I still think no.

Exactly what are you trying to accomplish with the modification that is not available in a stock handgun (though perhaps not the stock one you have)?

To me lots of risk. Very little reward.
 
Exactly what are you trying to accomplish with the modification that is not available in a stock handgun (though perhaps not the stock one you have)?

I wonder that myself, exactly what people are perceiving when they declare a trigger "bad". There's more than simple pull weight that goes into that.
 
I wonder that myself, exactly what people are perceiving when they declare a trigger "bad". There's more than simple pull weight that goes into that.

Assuming we are not talking bulls eye shooting or some other extreme accuracy situation to me a "bad" trigger is a trigger that I am challenged to pull without adjusting my grip or pulling off target. Granted I don't have experience with every handgun out there but I cannot think of one common semi-automatic handgun that this is an issue with for me. Because there are a tremendous amount of options out there that fit my need my desire to enter the realm of a modified defensive handgun is extremely small.
 
I'm surprised that so many people think the target in a self-defense shooting *won't* be as challenging as a 'target shooting' target?

I personally don't know what kind of shot I might have to make to save myself or my family, but I suspect that it could include:
  • Lots of innocents moving in and out of the area
  • Moving targets (aggressors)
  • Multiple aggressors SIMULTANEOUSLY attacking
  • Companions, children or other encumberances

I try to be ready for the self-defense shot I hope I never have to take being the hardest shot of my life; I don't imagine adrenaline, movement, surprise or confusion are going to make the mechanics of accurately shooting a firearm somehow easier.

Larry
 
Each shot that I fire is potentially deadly. I want to make sure I maximize my chances of hitting what I am aiming at while avoiding hitting anything that I am not aiming at. The addition of the Ghost Pro in my Glock 43 has made a improvement in my shooting. It wasn't horrible before, but it wasn't great either. Trigger is smoother and maybe marginally lighter, but certainly not a hair trigger.

Let's put a spin on this. What if we say that single action triggers like those on the 1911 have a short light trigger and those that carry them are looking to shoot people? What about the use of hollow point bullets designed to main? The list goes on and on. If we worried about every possibility, might as well lock ourselves away.
 
DT Guy said:
Lots of innocents moving in and out of the area...
Companions, children or other encumberances...
...adrenaline, movement, surprise or confusion...
All of those sound like great reasons to argue for a heavier trigger, to minimize the chance of unintentional discharge under stress.

Not trying to be snarky. Just pointing out that, even when we agree on all the problems you listed, we may disagree on the best way to approach them.
DT Guy said:
so many people think the target in a self-defense shooting *won't* be as challenging as a 'target shooting' target?
While I'm not sure I got that from the comments here, it is true that self-defense shootings tend to happen at close range.

NYPD in 2013 reported that 90% of its shootings are 0-7 yards. (Tom Givens has reported the same figure for the 56 shootings his previous students have experienced.) Earlier, looking at all their officer-killed shootings through 1979, NYPD noted that 34% happened at 1 yard or less, and 82% at 2 yards or less. The FBI looking at officer-killed shootings from 1991-2000 found 71% killed at 10 feet or less, with over 2/3 of those killed at 5ft or less.

Now, those are all just statistics. As an instructor of mine liked to say, "I'm a pretty smart guy but there's something I sure don't know: what your gunfight is going to look like."
 
stephen426 said:
Let's put a spin on this. What if we say that single action triggers like those on the 1911 have a short light trigger and those that carry them are looking to shoot people? What about the use of hollow point bullets designed to main? The list goes on and on. If we worried about every possibility, might as well lock ourselves away.
There's a big difference between carrying something as it came from the factory and modifying it. Presumably, if a gun was designed with a short, light trigger, and both a thumb and grip safety, smarter engineers than I designed it that way. (I'm not an engineer.) If I start removing those things, we have a different kettle of fish.

As far as I know, HPs were not designed to maim. I haven't researched that, though, so I may be wrong. That said, AFAIK, every police department in the country carries HPs.

It's a sliding, risk-vs-reward scale. If you ever have to shoot anyone, you can reasonably expect to have to testify somewhere. Maybe in the criminal case, maybe in the civil case, maybe both. You danged well better be able to justify your choice to 12 people, chosen at random in your area.
 
There's a big difference between carrying something as it came from the factory and modifying it

I agree - my take on it is it is much easier to say "this gun came from a reputable manufacturer and was designed for its intended purposes" and let the manufacturer defend the design aspects of the gun then it is to say "well I thought the trigger was too heavy so I decided I would modify it"
 
I guess this comes down to the personal choice, and whether or not one feels the risk being prosecuted (or sued civilly) for having an aftermarket trigger is worth the benefit of those aftermarket parts.

The examples I used were somewhat tongue in cheek. Why would we choose a more lethal round? Why not shoot to kill? I understand that something straight from a factory may seem easier to justify, but how about those who choose to use "assault rifles" to protect their homes?
 
I can't answer for others. I chose not to use a black rifle to protect my home partially because of the politics around them
 
...how about those who choose to use "assault rifles" to protect their homes?
Although that's not really on-topic for the General Handgun subforum, it is a good question, and one that should be given consideration.
 
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