Update on "New Wildcat" performance. Deep seated lead cast bullet in 38 spl case.

Because of the long distance the deeply seated bullet has to jump to the throat, it is probably leaking gas around the bullet and limiting both velocity and causing some gas cutting of the lead, which affects accuracy adversely. Second, because you can't crimp the bullet that far down in the case, any small differences in case diameter will affect bullet pull more than in normally seated and crimped cases. For that reason, your start pressure is likely to vary more than with a bullets properly seated and with a roll crimp into the bullet crimp groove. Try seating some in the normal way. Using the same charge of powder you will get less velocity, but it should be more consistent.

There are also some things that can cause chronograph readings to be in error. The most common one is shooting too close to the instrument so that muzzle blast causes false triggering. Shooting close to the ground will mean muzzle blast also kicks up dust, which can be an issue with false readings, too.

If you don't have a tripod for the chronograph, try getting at least three meters away from it. You can also take a cardboard carton and cut it out to create a blast shield. You make a wide (2 or 3 inches or 50-75 mm) vertical slot in the middle of each end of the box and set it right in front of you and line the slots up with the target and chronograph, You shoot through the slits or put the muzzle inside the near slit. The bottom of the box will stop prevent dust kick-up when you are on the ground.

Another problem is glint. This when light reflected off the ground bounces off the bullet, causing a false reading of it's location. For shooting with the instrument on the ground, find a piece of cardboard about four feet long and two feet wide and paint it flat black and set the chronograph on it to stop glints.
 
Other data according to the Chronograph
First Group is the Lee 148 grain lead Wadcutter and second Group is the bullet you see in the first Picture the Lee 124 Truncated Cone 9mm Luger lead bullet. All shot from the SAA 357 Magnum Revolver and loaded like in Pictures of this post.

148 grain Wadcutter Lee lead .358" bullet loaded with Saga 3.2 grain scavenged powder gives 860 fps of velocity. 243 ft/lbs

148 grain Wadcutter Lee lead .358" bullet loaded with J&G 3.1 grain scavenged powder gives 863 fps of velocity. 245 ft/lbs

148 grain Wadcutter Lee lead .358" bullet loaded with Orbea 3.0 grain scavenged powder gives 836 fps of velocity. 230 ft/lbs
148 grain Wadcutter Lee lead .358" bullet loaded with Saga 4.0 grain scavenged powder gives 1001 fps of velocity. 329 ft/lbs
124 grain TC Lee lead .356" bullet loaded with J&G 3.1 grain scavenged powder gives 892 fps of velocity. 219 ft/lbs

124 grain TC Lee lead .356" bullet loaded with Orbea 3.0 grain scavenged powder gives 871 fps of velocity. 209 ft/lbs

124 grain TC Lee lead .356" bullet loaded with Saga 3.1 grain scavenged powder gives 848 fps of velocity. 198 ft/lbs
 
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Believe me: those 148 grain WC are sitting firmly.
Notting in the world, to say like that, will remove them. I seated half way down one last time and tried to pull 'em out with a plier but never was able to move it a bit. They are probably engaging the tapered part of the the case inside what seats 'em firmly.

I have a Feeling the Chronograph works as it should be.

My last data you can observe very consistent readings. So it's not the Chrony.

The Plastik Glock I sold loaded reliably with those loads you observe for the 124 grain TC (just in 9mm Luger cases obviously). Seating depth, bullet and powder Charge are the same.

The 848 fps 124 grain TC round is nothing else than a glorified 380 Auto round with it's 198 ft/lbs of energy. The other 2 124 grainers TC are approaching 38 spl Levels of enrgy but do not quiet reach 250 ft/lbs of the normal 38 spl.
All 148 grain WC are in the 38 spl ballpark of energy.

But...
3.0 grains of Orbea powder gives me higher energy Levels with the 148 grain Wadcutter.
3.1 grains of J&G powder gives me again more energy Levels with the 148 grain WC than with the 124 grain TC.

It is definetely a better idea using the heavier bullet (148 Wadcutter) in this load since the return of energy for the same amount of powder is greater with the heavier bullet.
 
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But maybe I am wrong.

Federal premiums ballistic calculator states a bunch of 9mm Luger round which are 124 grain and 1000 fps as well or 147 grain and 1000 fps as well.

https://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics_calculator/

So that gives similar energy Levels as the Lee 148 WC does with 4.0 grain powder (like data above) so in the ballpark of 325 ft/lbs.
As I Screen the brands and bullet weights through I see about 50% of the loads listed for 9mm Luger having "only" about 325 ft/lbs as energy.

Maybe I should be happy with what I have got for the 148 grain WC making 1001 fps of velocity and 329 ft/lbs energy.
As well I see the Standard 38 spl having lots of them "only" about 200 ft/lbs of energy.
But for sure they ain't an 44 Magnum regards power.

Maybe then my reloads are not as bad as they at first seemed to me.

Shooting steel trees I feel the 148 grain WC having way more Punch than even the 110 grain 357 mag factory round since the tree arm is swung with an noticeable more force and authority and the Impact sounds heavier.

I believe one lesson can be learned: the deep seating bullets lets you "squeeze" out more energy from the reload with an reduced amount of powder (like 3.0 to 3.2 grain of an given powder).
So deep seating means more Efficiency and an heavier bullet is more efficient as well.
 
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As you see, a 148 grain bullet at 860 fps is .38 Special +P ballistically.
At 1001 fps, it is comparable to a 9mm "subsonic" load.
That is not bad for your necessary adaptations and improvisations.
A major manufacturer is following in your footsteps, the new Federal Micro HST .38 Special has a deeply seated bullet.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/11/new-federal-ammunition-offerings/

In 9mm, I would be content with a load that would function the action and not be concerned with equaling factory velocity.
 
Thanks for sharing Jim Watson.

I did not know that.

Plastik Glock 9mm is cycling reliably with:

124 grain lead Truncated Cone and 3.1 grain of an given powder (Saga).

115 grain FMJ Winchester RN bullets and 4.4 grain of an given powder (Saga).

for both same brand of powder. Both are Minimum Points of reliable cycling.
 
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400 ft-lbs is a military load. A lot of the commercial loads are not that high.

500 ft-lbs is very possible in the .357, but you'll have to seat the bullet out further so you can use more powder. Right now the bullet is only having to move a very short distance forward to double the volume the powder is burning in. This means the pressure drops pretty rapidly as it goes forward after the pressure peak, whereas a normally seated bullet with the powder charge adjusted to get to the same peak pressure, will lose pressure more gradually as the bullet goes further down the barrel because the larger powder charge has made a greater quantity of gas. This gives the bullet more acceleration beyond the peak pressure than you are getting now.

TheGuyOfSouthAmerica said:
Believe me: those 148 grain WC are sitting firmly.
Click to expand...

Yes, but how consistent is the hold from one bullet to the next? Are the cases truly identically thick? That's what could account for velocity variation. Uneven bullet holding strength.
 
Yes Sir.

Only my Goal was and is to use as Little powder as possible.
Obviously if I put in more powder I will have higher velocities.

I got already my Lee Tumble Lube 148 grain Wadcutter mold and today made a few. I loaded one round and chronoed it but it was to dark already and the Chrono gave me an error.

Tomorrow I will start a thread of:

Chronograph Data: Elmer Keith style vs Lee Tumble Luber 148 grain Wadcutter velocity.

See if the lube grooves make really a difference in velocity as Lee Precision Claims.
I have a Feeling it does.
Since as I loaded one round I found them going in very Slick into the case as much as there is way less resistance while seating and "crimping" the tumble Lube design.
Those may have a Problem in seating loose; which those Elmer Keith style do not (they seat quiete with force).

Maybe the trick is Lee Precision undersizes a bit "their design" at least as that it feels. But maybe the tumble lube design surfaces is really way more Slick.
 
Ahhh! You may be laboring under a false assumption. Peak pressure does not determine the amount of energy in the bullet. That is determined by average pressure applied to the bullet during its travel down through the bore. So, if you have, say 30,000 psi at the peak, but the muzzle has only 5,000 psi, then the average is 17,500 psi. If you have a peak of 20,000 psi and the muzzle pressure is 15,000 psi, then the average is also 17,500 psi, so the bullet will have the same velocity and energy.

The reason you get more velocity from your powder by deep seating is it raises the expansion ratio, enabling the powder to be used more efficiently. Below is a plot made from data calculated in QuickLOAD. It shows the theoretical relationship between seating depth and pressure and velocity and energy. Note how much more rapidly peak pressure rises for a fixed charge than velocity or energy do as you seat the bullet deeper. Norma's manual also warns about this. However, if you are not getting the listed velocity you are not getting the theoretical pressure. This may be due to the gas bypass I described as well as the fact the barrel-cylinder gap leaks a higher percentage of the gas at a higher pressure. QuickLOAD treats the barrel as if it were a rifle barrel and has no gas bypass leakage allowance and no barrel/cylinder gap allowance in its model.

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Unclenick;

I agree completely. The energy of the bullet is the area under the curve of the pressure vs time graph.

TGOSA;

Your issue is that you're using very fast powder. Typically 12 ga target or field loads use fast pistol powder, like Red Dot or 700x. This spike the pressure up fast, in order to burn correctly. But the total area under the pressure vs time curve is low.

You need a much slower powder. Typically, mid range powders similar to unique are found in 20 ga shells, and slow magnum powder is found is .410 shells.

Using fast pistol/shotgun powder will only get you the results you're seeing. The pressure would spike too much if you just load in more powder. While it possible (as you've seen) to load fast powders like Red Dot in 9mm or .357, you don't get full powder loads.
 
The guy of SA, I'd agree your powder must be something similar to Red Dot in burn rate. A relatively fast powder. If highest muzzle energy with a fast powder is what you are looking for, a lighter bullet is the way to go. If you had access to slower powders, you could safely push your 148 grain wadcutters to much higher velocities without flattened primers or sticky extraction. We're all Rootin' for you in any case;)
 
According to the Spanish 12 ga shotshell manufacturer the powder used is following:

Maxam CSB 1P
Which is similar to their metallic CSB 1M
http://www.maxamcomponents.com/en/outdoorsbrand/componentes/products/powders/csb_powders
This powder I have used with my Chronograph tests till now.

That may be somewhat similar to Unique.

The other Spanish brand uses equel to VV N330 powder in their 12 ga shotshells.

I have to trade off powder for lead. Since powder is scarce and lead is plenty and cheap its an trade off.
If more lead (heavier bullets) let me save some powder and I get equal or even more energy from that set up that system is more efficient and economical.
Scavenging 20 ga or even 410 ga shells is not an option due to very high prices. They even jacked up lately 12 ga ammo prices.
 
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Just out of curiosity, how much powder are in the 20 ga shells you can get locally? Looking in my load manual, it's likely 17 to 24 grains of powder.
 
I dun'no.
They are to expensive to use.

One brand 12 ga has 22 grain, another has 25 grain and another brand has 28 grain.

These will have the same as the brands you have in the US. Most brands from here are from Spain like Rio. Just one brand is from Argentina.

12 ga I not even dare anymire to shoot because of cost. I rather use those shells to reload my revolver or 9mm Luger. One 12 ga shell gives me 6 rounds of eigther if I use 3.8 grains of powder which translates to 991 fps with an 148 grain Wadcutter and 322 ft/lbs energy.

If i shoot shotgun its the 20 ga.
 
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