Update on "New Wildcat" performance. Deep seated lead cast bullet in 38 spl case.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Dear ya all,

See Pictures:

I left aside the "reinvented 9mm Federal Rimmed" and instead did what an Cast Boolits member was suggesting me: Seating deep the Lee .356" lead cast Truncated Cone Tumble lube 124 grain bullets into the 38 spl case. The Picture on top is the result.
In that Picture right you see the "new wildcat", in the middle you see the same bullet in an 9mm Luger and on the left you see the cast bullet itself.
The Picture in the middle are the entrance holes from the "new wildcat" from an distance of 55 meters. You see it has an accuracy of about "Movement of Deer". It is good for hunting and defense I guess. I measured the accuracy and I got 6" from hole to hole (no particular aiming was done at that Shooting from standing). 2 shots of These "wildcats" were fired.
The last Picture are the Exit wholes from the 2 shot fired "new wildcat" from a distance of 55 meters. You see it penetrated the 200 Liter bin right through and entered on an Wood at the back and must have bounced off since I can not find the bullets.
Comparison: #4 buckshot will NOT penetrate the bin (often not even from the front side) from 20 meters. 00 buck will penetrate the bin both sides from 20 meters but not all of the 9 pellets.
You see therefore These "wildcats" have a good Penetration. They are loaded with 3.0 grain 700X type scavenged shotgun powder behind the .356" 124 grain Lee bullet. They are seated 0.100" deep from flush (like an wadcutter but deeper) and empty airspace in the case should equal about that of an 9mm Luger. The 9mm Luger I load the same bullet and powder Charge.
Seated at 0.125" from flush These wildcats start to Show bulges near the rim and I guess that may be a sign of incipient case head Separation (but no hard extraction nor any other signs of over pressure could be seen). These wildcats are shot in an Heritage/Pietta Rough Rider 357 Magnum SAA 5.5" Revolver.
Lubed are These "wildcat" and 9mm Luger not anymore with Texaco Marfak Lithium grease but I changed to Raidl Raidex Crayon animal marker sticks from Hauptner&Herberholz made in Germany for bullet lube.With this bullet lube I do NOT get leading at all and it stays solid til 176 degrees Farenheit (80 degrees Celsius). These Crayons do not seep oils nor liquify if exposed to direct sunlight on a cooking hot truck Hood.

What do you guys think? Any opinions?

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I put the Pictures inline of the post edited with Irfanview. Now you can appreciate better.

Sorry for the bad Picture posting till now but I did not know how to post them correctly.

 

[IMtheNRA]

That's pretty good, especially for an improvised cartridge from scavenged components. I've enjoyed reading about your experiments, thank you for sharing this interesting topic.

Have you considered performing penetration and expansion tests? Can you build a chronograph from locally available components?

 

[IMtheNRA]

Furthermore, I guess that you must have accumulated quite a pile of shot shell primers by now.

Have you considered the possibility of modifying some of your .38 cases to accept this primer and a tiny projectile?

You could create a sub-caliber conversion for your revolver with a barrel liner. Perhaps a .22 pellet or a .177 lead pellet, propelled only by the primer? A tubular liner can be used inside the .38 case to accept the pellet and line it up with the barrel liner.

It'll be quiet and probably quite effective for fun target practice, even indoors.

 

[Mal H]

The second and third image are both the same.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Mal H,

now as I checked the Pictures are OK.
But I realised as well sometimes the last 2 Pictures are the same. Sometimes they Show correct.

If you check the attached files you clearly see those are all different files (even different sizes).

So the TFL Software may be faulty.

 

[John C]

Cool! How much are you paying for shotshells? Are you using the lead shot to cast bullets, or are you trading that away.

In another thread, I mentioned you should try milling black powder, but saw that you previously tried that with little success. What went wrong? With .357, you pretty much need a compressed case full of BP to get any sort of performance. Also, a homemade ball mill will easily allow you make powder. There are several great youtube videos about this.

Plus, you can load your empty 12 gauge shells with BP, and use them for regular shotgun work. BP works great in shotshells; there's plenty of room.

 

[Unclenick]

If you check the attached files you clearly see those are all different files (even different sizes).

Different sizes, yes, but the first and last of the uploaded pictures are identical, except that one is one in .JPG format and the other in .GIF format. Note that even the file names are the same except for the three-letter extension after the dot. One way to avoid the problem is to edit all three into one photo with a different file name. That will give you complete control over what appears.

Very interesting experiment. Glad it seems to be working out for you. I seem to recall you were expecting to buy a chronograph and measure some velocities. Did that happen?

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Dear Unclenick,

I have the Pictures in front of me right now and they are fine (each one is a different one). They are as I placed them but realised sometimes the 2 last Pictures are indeed the same but not allways (there may some iffy stuff going on with the web upload. Who knows!).

As all things here if I order it arrives 4 weeks later if it does not go through the Gun Agency. If it goes through the governement control and there is a miracle and they let is pass through customs then it may arrive in 2 months.

Good News for me!
2 of the many molds I ordered have arrived. It is the Lee .358" 105 grain Semi Wad Cutter (they arrive over here in Southamerica for about 130 US$ each) and the Lee .356" 120 grain Truncated Cone.
It is hard to get over here imported These molds as depending on the employees of the Gun Agency they allow it or do not allow it to pass customs (may have to do as well with some bribery or abuse of power by the chief of the national Gun Agency).
It is like a miracle.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Some more Penetration tests of the "wildcat" see "W", normally loaded and seated see N and 9mm Luger see 9mm.

The photo of the barely peenetrated bullet is an regularly seated 38 spl round with 3.0 grains of powder. You see it has not Penetration nor did it have recoil. Photo with the N.



The other photo with the "W" is the deep seated "wildcat" loaded with 3.0 grains of powder. This did have more Penetration than even the 9mm Luger in the other photo.



The other photo with the 9mm written is the same 124 grain lead round shot from the 9mm Luger S&W SD9VE pistol. The 9mm Luger round is loaded as well with 3.0 grains of powder. This 9mm Luger did have a stovepipe so I guess it must have been loaded with some weaker powder. It did not have as much Penetration than the "wildcat".

 

[Unclenick]

The penetration tests look successful. When you get your chronograph, that will be the other way to verify that you are not losing a lot of energy to gas bypass during the long long trip through the case and chamber throat to the revolver forcing cone.

I assume those Lee molds are the 6-cavity molds. I like them. It sounds like you either have to pay a lot of duty or tax or perhaps you are shipping them by air; that would add a lot to the cost. If you take good care of them and you are careful to follow their lubricating instructions, they can last a very long time.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I do not find any attachement manager to erase one of the pics. The moderator may do it for me. I even can not edit the original post anymore. Just erase one of the doibles.

The molds are 6 cavity. Yes they got shipped by air. That ~130$ price is all cost including. Yes the molds get oiled before and after using. The nice thing is they are no commercially availlable. Here the governement restricts gun stores to sell reloading supplys but privately you can import them previous passing the Gun Agency. So nobody sells dies molds presses scales etc. If some reloading supplys are in stock then that inventory remotes to the 1990's. Modern mail forewarders have made these private imports possible. Through those mail forewarders you can bring yourself guns as well directly from the USA. For example thos mail forewarders are registred FFL dealers in the US as well registred here in the local country. All this is legal and way cheaper than waiting for third party businesses to import something.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

UPDATE! Got the chronograph

Finally the chronograph arrived.
It arrived triple as expensive as in the US.
I bought the Caldwell Precision Chronograph. The chrono works but it's Software (APP) seems not to work.

I shot 2 random DEWC Lee 148 grain wadcutters from the Revolver.
I got following readings:

993 fps
848 fps (see this measure on photo)

 

[rock185]

Congratulations on getting your chronograph. It will be a great help to you in determining how safe and consistent your reloads are. I have used a chronograph regularly for many years and don't know how anyone serious about reloading can get along without one. I see reports of people trying to figure out reloads and factory ammo by how much recoil, muzzle blast, flash etc. they experience. Not an accurate way to determine very much about ammunition velocity, energy or safety.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

What would you say.

This DEWC 148 grain lead bullet traveling at 848 fps/993 fps is that in the ballpark an 9mm Luger 148 grainer would be as well or is it rather in the ballpark of an 38 spl only or maybe 38 spl +P?

 

[Pathfinder45]

In your initial pictures showing the bullets, it looks like they were poured at perhaps a too-low temperature, into a mold that was not pre-heated. Better casting technique will produce more accurate bullets. When I do a casting session, I usually have three grades of bullets: Those that appear excellent; those that look pretty good; and those that just look good enough for close range practice drills. Everything else goes back in the pot for a remelt. But they all don't have to be perfect; we all need some fannin' ammo. Right?
But I'm wondering why you wouldn't just load those bullets and crimp them in place in the correct, conventional manner?

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

The round shot and chronographed today is this one (Lee 148 grain Wadcutter) as here

Regards the "bad" cast bullets. Like that they are all. It may be due to the high Zinc Content of the Wheel Weigths I use for lead source.
It makes no difference at 50 meters or 125 meters (with this Revolver I can hit a man size at 100 meters). For rifle bullets you may want perfect bullets but then you may as well want FMJ factory bullets if you exceed 1800 fps.

 

[reddog81]

Is the 848 and the 993 FPS from the same load? If so that's a rather large spread from a sample of 2.

I believe 147 9mm loads are supposed to be around 1000 to 1050 so your 993 is pretty close. 848 would be a hot 38 special load or a light +P load.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I just loaded an round to 3.7 grains using the 148 Lee Wadcutter and got 976 fps. Shot from an 357 mag SAA 5.5“ revolver.
Really nothing to write home about.
The primer flattened a quiet bit but could stand more pressure.
I am kind of unimpressed of the velocity.
The selfmade powder dipper if heaped fully (till no powder stays on top anymore) will hold 4 grains.
With the 3.7 grains this load I believe is in between the 38 spl and the 9mm Luger so not impressive

What you guy say about these velocities?

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Hi all,

I loaded again one round this time with 4 grains of the scavenged shotgun powder VV N330 type with the 148 grain Lee Wadcutter and it gave me 1001 fps in velocity which translates to 329 ft/lbs in energy.
The gun has an 5.5" Barrel.

Kind of unhappy about that. Did not meet my expectations of approaching 400 to 500 ft/lbs in energy.
Seems an heavier bullet not neccesary tranlates to higher energy Levels.

More powder I do not want to load since the case is at extraction from the SAA Revolver already on the edge to be sticky.
Before I shot one of These loaded to 3.7 grain same powder and that gave me 313 ft/lbs since it had 976 fps of velocity. With that flattened primer as well but no sticky case.

So at most These rounds (deep seated Nagant style) have an power Level approaching the 9mm Luger and not nearly are getting Close to the 357 Magnum full power factory loads.

My expectations were it would have more energy due to it's heavy bullet but that seems being an trade off to velocity.
An stanard 9mm Luger round has 356 ft/lbs of energy and the Winchester 110 grain 357 Magnum have 410 ft/lbs as energy.
So at most this deep seated 148 grain lead Wadcutter is an weak 9mm Luger round.