Update on Burger King shooting

[pax]

David,

Sure, a summary is only a summary, and looking at the research in detail is better.

In the real world, summaries are often both necessary and helpful.

Also in the real world, everyone else is just as busy as you are, and just as important too. Refusing to summarize is thus quite reasonably perceived as both rude and arrogant. (See this link for a further explanation, if one is needed.)

pax

 

[pax]

What advice would you give to an unarmed person facing an armed attacker? Is it the exact same advice you would give to someone who actually had both the tactical and the practical upper hand in the situation?

I think we are changing the situation. "Armed attacker" covers a whole lot more territory than armed robber.

I notice you failed to answer my question. Let me try again:

Is the advice you would give to a weak, unarmed, untrained person the exact same advice you would give to an armed and trained person?

pax

 

[David Armstrong]

David, are you sure he is only comparing resistance against non-gun wielding BGs? I am not saying you are wrong but that is not what I hear him saying. If you have a further cite please let me know.

No. I am saying (and the research indicates) that he is comparing DGU against all attacks, gun and non-gun, for his ratios. IIRC (and I'm doing this from memory, as I don't have the material here at home) out of about 2500 total DGUs only 10 involved gun-wielding BGs.

 

[David Armstrong]

David, are you saying that most LE do not want civilians to CCW? You might be right.

No, I did not say that. I said that LE recommends against cashiers in stores armikng themselves becasue they feell it increases the chance for injury, as the cashiers are likely to use force when it is not necessary.

Yeah OK but is that what we are talking about? Observing a robbery is not the same as being robbed. The issue we face is what to do when we are robbed.

Actually, if you will refer to the OP, we are discussing observing. It has moved over to what to do it you are being robbed, but I don't think it changes anything. Compliance is still the best default option available, the one most likely to lead to a successful outcome that minimizes your loss of resources.

 

[Creature]

so...do you go unarmed?

 

[David Armstrong]

I notice you failed to answer my question.

I pointed out that you were changing the parameters. I still do. Different answers for different situations. "Armed attacker" covers a lot of territory, both for the attacker and the attack itself.

Is the advice you would give to a weak, unarmed, untrained person the exact same advice you would give to an armed and trained person?

In what situation? If we stay with the BK scenario, yes. If you are the cashier, give the BG the money is the default. If you are a witness, sit there and be a witness is the default. Do what is best to minimize loss of resources. If the sitution evolves then the response might also evolve, and being armed and trained can lead to a different response based on minimizing loss.

 

[David Armstrong]

so...do you go unarmed?

I don't whip out my gun and shoot it every chance I get.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

so...do you go unarmed?

Good point! If you comply with the robbery what good will it do to carry. Or are we talking other threats and robbery should be off the table for DGU?

I said that LE recommends against cashiers in stores armikng themselves becasue they feell it increases the chance for injury, as the cashiers are likely to use force when it is not necessary.

Actually, you didn't mention cashiers but I know you are responding to a lot of posts. Does LE think that CCW is a good idea?

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

If the sitution evolves then the response might also evolve, and being armed and trained can lead to a different response based on minimizing loss.

OK! So when does that evolution occur? What are the signs? How do we know (statistics aside) that the BG is going the harm us? If we have the advantage (surprise, cover, distance, concealment, gun etc) should we use it as soon as we attain it or wait? How can we know ifwe will have another opening? In the BK case if the good guy had just walked up behind the BG and shot him in the head without warning would that meet more low risk criteria?

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

I don't whip out my gun and shoot it every chance I get.

David, you say you are ex-military and I am retired so we both know what our Army buddies would say to that one

 

[David Armstrong]

Actually, you didn't mention cashiers but I know you are responding to a lot of posts. Does LE think that CCW is a good idea?

Sorry, missed the point. AFAIK, most all the research indicates nationwide LEOs are pro-CCW buy a fair margin. That varies a lot, though, based on location and rank.

Good point! If you comply with the robbery what good will it do to carry.

There are lots of reasons to carry outside of the robbery issue. If there were never any robberies would there still be times when one could be in a DGU? Sure.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

I am saying (and the research indicates) that he is comparing DGU against all attacks, gun and non-gun, for his ratios. IIRC (and I'm doing this from memory, as I don't have the material here at home) out of about 2500 total DGUs only 10 involved gun-wielding BGs.

I think you are a bit off. 18%(360,000) of successful DGUs were against gun wielding BGs according to here: http://www.outdoors.net/site/features/feature.aspx?Forum=Firearms&ArticleCode=121&jse=1

Here's a quote too:

Guns are extremely successful in preventing theft. They succeed almost 90% of the time, most often without being fired, or the thief injured.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

If there were never any robberies would there still be times when one could be in a DGU?

So you advise us not to use firearms during robberies except when?

 

[David Armstrong]

OK! So when does that evolution occur? What are the signs? How do we know (statistics aside) that the BG is going the harm us?

Pax posted a pretty good list of indicators/actions in another thread. Perhaps she would re-do it here?
And we don't know for sure, but there are some things that are indicative of the situation being taken up a notch. I can tell you some situations when I would probably fight, in a very broad context. I won't be tied up. I won't kneel down. I won't go to another room. I won't be taken to a car. I won't let the BG physically endanger me and mine. Lots of other factors can come into play.

we have the advantage (surprise, cover, distance, concealment, gun etc) should we use it as soon as we attain it or wait? How can we know ifwe will have another opening?

How do you know if you have an opening now? In the original story, the BG had a partner. In this case the partner staryed outside in the car, but he could just as easily have come in before and been sitting behind you eating some fries when you decided to act.
It may just be a difference of perspective. Some here seem to look at it as "how do I maximize my chance of shooting the BG" while I tend to focus on "how do I minimize the danger and loss."

 

[David Armstrong]

I think you are a bit off. 18%(360,000) of successful DGUs were against gun wielding BGs according to here: http://www.outdoors.net/site/feature...Code=121&jse=1

Nope. we are talking different things again. They are referring to the statistical computations (extrapolation), I'm referring to the actual numbers. Interesting, BTW, that so many want to use stats when it supports their position but then say how useless stats are when it shows their position wrong.

Here's a quote too:

Yes, theft is very different from armed robbery.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

I won't let the BG physically endanger me and mine.

Not to pick nits but aren't you and yours in danger physically when a bad-intentioned BG who has a gun is robbing you or is nearby robbing another?

How do you know if you have an opening now?

Good question! How would you know when you had an opening in these situations?:

I won't be tied up. I won't kneel down. I won't go to another room. I won't be taken to a car.

What would you look for?

Some here seem to look at it as "how do I maximize my chance of shooting the BG" while I tend to focus on "how do I minimize the danger and loss."

I am with you here BUT I could care less about the loss and danger to the BG who has put my life in jeopardy. That may be the difference we are talking past each other on. The police don't want ANYBODY hurt which is why when they arrest dangerous criminals they don't just shoot them down immediately without trying to take them into custody. My issue is; I am a civilian with no duty IMO to capture any BGs but I want to live and if I have an advantage over a BG who has shown a willingness to harm me (an armed robbery is such) then I would be inclined to take the advantage rather than trust the odds you espouse over those which Dr. Kleck has said are really more on my side.

Going back to BK and your issues with Kleck. If the guy in BK had a knife would stepping up to him with a gun be OK from your perspective?

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Nope. we are talking different things again. They are referring to the statistical computations(extrapolation), I'm referring to the actual numbers.

Even with extrapolation wouldn't the % remain constant? Anyway, all these studies pretty much use extrapolation. In Mr. Kleck's remarks (and I really wish you would go listen to what he says) he says he uses the same statistical analysis that polls in elections use. I think it is common.

So are you saying that because there is not a large number in the sampling Kleck used that we should infer that fighting back with a gun against a BG who has a gun is more likely to result in injury to us?

Interesting, BTW, that so many want to use stats when it supports their position but then say how useless stats are when it shows their position wrong.

Can't speak for others but I have no problem with statistics IF they are used in context and explained. Otherwise they are misleading. Anyway, you mentioned the numbers about DGUs and I looked them up for you. Your welcome

 

[Creature]

I don't whip out my gun and shoot it every chance I get.

Now, David, that's not what I asked. How about answering my question. Do you actually believe in your research enough to put into practice the habit of going everywhere unarmed?

 

[ftd]

Excuse my ignorance, but....

Could someone please explain to me why the BK armed robbery event would be classified as a just a robbery rather than an armed attack waiting to happen on everyone in the place?

If someone busts into my home waving a firearm and yelling, I'm going to try to shoot him without even caring that he wants to just rob me. His breaking in and carrying a gun poses an imminent lethal threat to me and my household. Am I looking at this wrong? If so, please help me out.

If not, why is it different at a BK?

 

[Jofaba]

If it was me, I'd drop out of vision if possible. If not, I'd slowly snake my hand to my weapon. Regardless of cover, I'd make sure that my hand ended up on the handle of my gun.

If the guy fired a shot at anyone I would take him out. Even if I ended up doing time I would feel confident that I had saved lives.

If he did not fire at a person, if he shot the ceiling or the floor and I didn't see death, I would stand back.

If he came towards me without firing on anyone and got close and I felt that the next few seconds would dictate my life I would make my decision then and there based on the circumstances.

I would never stop a robbery as that is not my job as a citizen.

Sometimes I wish that we, as carrying citizens, could make that kind of decision and stop a crime, but I don't beleive that it is either part of our individual right, nor even our constitutional right.

As such, I will not hold someone at gun point and will not warn them of my presence. If I draw it will be based on my view that the perp is about to kill me or someone else.

If I kill someone while carrying, it will be to protect myself or a fellow human from immediate death. I am willing to end up in prison for life based on that action, as my life or the life i save is worth my incarceration.

In my eyes, accepting that kind of fate, that horror of justice, is what you are weighing when you pull the trigger.