Unloaded handgun in CA in a lock box in a car trunk at work.

That is a most reasonable perspective.

And on an individual case basis, it makes great sense.

But consider the larger perspective --

On this forum, in most of the threads regarding "when do you carry concealed?" (or similar topic) you often find responses that sound like this: "well, I can't carry at work, so I don't then, but most other times..." etc. etc.

As most forum participants work, and as work often consumes 8 hrs per day or 40 hrs per week of people's time, thats a large percentage of people's weeks when they cannot carry.

And then they cannot carry inside government buildings, should they have business there. Or sporting arenas, where it is posted. Or of course airports, even if you are just picking someone up. Or schools and universities. Or hospitals. Or locations that serve alcoholic beverages, where posted. And let us not forget US federal parks and state parks. And its sort of frowned on in church.....

In point of fact, aside from walking around town, there are all sorts of limits to concealed carry.

If those who want firearms out of private hands can succeed in expanding this list even further - for example, if Home Depot or Lowes post signs that weapons are not allowed on premises (for liability insurance policy reasons); and restaurants are convinced that they will lose their liability coverage if they do not post signs that concealed carry is not allowed in restaurants; and other businesses are also told that for 'violence prevention' reasons that their insurance costs will increase to the point that they will no longer be able to afford liability coverage - if they allow concealed carry on premises - then guess what?

Concealed carry will effectively not be very 'legal' or supportable in most, if not all, of the places that citizens carry concealed. It will be outlawed due to the dangers inherent in businesses not being able to afford liability insurance coverage.

And in the end, spread far enough throughout towns and municipalities across the U.S., this sort of approach may accomplish the objectives of those against firearms in much the same way that medical arguments and medical insurance costs/life insurance costs have had signficant impacts on the tobacco industry. (Try to find an affordable health care insurance policy if you tell them you're a smoker...)

By all means, if you "ride for the brand" you obey the dictates of the guy who is signing your paychecks.

But realize that there is a larger agenda at work, which - little by little over time - may result in fewer and fewer guys carrying concealed - because there will be fewer and fewer places that will tolerate it.

Just a thought...
 
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Interesting topic. I manage the Physical Security Department for a major defense contractor. Our Company Policy is that guns are not allowed on Company property except those carried by Security Officers (both uniformed and non-uniformed).

Additionally each employee, as a condition of employment, signs an agreement allowing themselves, their belongings and their vehicle to be searched any time they arrive or leave Company property. Also there are signs posted at every entry point stating that all persons and vehicles entering or leaving are subject to search. All of our parking lots are inside the protected areas (inside fences, gates, past armed guards, electronic monitoring, CCTV, ect.)

We do periodic random checks of persons and vehicles entering and leaving the property. If, during a random inspection, we discover a gun in a vehicle or on a person we give the person a copy of the Company Policy. If, during the inspection, we open the trunk and see what could be a gun case, we ask the person what is in the case. If they tell us a gun, we do not open the case, we just give the person a copy of the Company Policy. If they say it is a blender (or something else) we look inside. If it is a blender, no problem. If it is a gun we give the person a copy of the Company Policy and write an Incident Report which is sent to Human Resources and the person's supervisor. If the person refuses to allow a search we collect that persons ID badge and notify Human Resources that person is no longer allowed on Company Property.

However, we have people who do as the OP, go to a range after work but don't want to have to go all the way home first. We allow, by prior arrangement, for employees to declare to the gate Security Officer that they have a gun in the car, that they have made prior arrangements with the Security Office. We then take the gun, still in its case, and lock it in one of the gun safes. We return it to the employee when he/she leaves for the day.

It is not a great policy (I would rather that every law-abiding citizen was armed) but it works for us in view of the fact that we have to keep the Department of Defense happy.

:)
 
Keep in mind that company polices can dictate just about anything -- including that you must wear underwear to work (seriously!). That doesn't mean they're legal though.

The wording of the policy may have a strong bearing on your employment even if that was not the company's intent. For example, one company I used to work for had a company policy that said
No employee shall consume alcohol, knowingly commit illegal acts or possess illicit drugs, or possess weapons, including firearms, while working for the company.
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Do you read this as prohibiting the actions while on company time -- or even on your personal time away from work? I eventually got them to change the wording by asking a lawyer I knew for his opinion. He agreed with my assessment and also suggested it was non-enforceable.

Companies have a right to protect their business, it's assets and employees. Security checkpoints that inspect briefcases, handbags and other containers may be implemented.¹

Since they provide your desk/cubicle/cabinets, it's their right to be able to see if you have anything in your desk you should not have (guns, drugs, Playboy, customer lists, etc.).

I do not begrudge them these abilities at all, so long as they are conducted properly and with some common sense.

But when it comes to signing a consent form that says they can search my vehicle, the answer is No. It is reasonable for them to search my person, briefcase or laptop case when entering or exiting the building. Either at random or with some cause to be suspicious. That is because I could possibly be stealing something and concealed it to exit the building.

But they do not provide my vehicle, nor can I bring it into the building in order to hide stolen items. If they have someone who saw some theft or possible crime involving the vehicle, they may call police who can obtain a warrant to search if the evidence is credible.

My vehicle and the possessions therein are do not exist to allow a corporate flunky looking for a promotion to paw through them. If they have a "need" to do so, they can call the police, explain their "cause" to them and the police can tell me that sufficient cause exists to obtain a warrant.

Further, if a container exists inside the vehicle's trunk which is locked, that is not part of the vehicle, there is, IMO, no reason for them to claim they can search it, even with a consent form. The form usually covers the vehicle itself.²


¹ Most frequently, these are exit check points to ensure people aren't walking out with secure documents, office supplies or laptop computers without authorization.
² Unless the language explicitly includes all objects or containers within the vehicle locked or not. In which case the box may just become my friend's expensive camera gear that he left at my house and I'm returning to him tonight, and sorry, I don't have the keys.
 
Some I worked with were bringing their guns to work anyway, locking them up in their cars. Should they ever be found out, they were going with "It's not ON your property, it's locked up inside MY property," hoping a smart lawyer might see it their way and help to save their pensions. Especially when there were numerous hold-ups on the property anyway, and security patrols weren't even stepped up afterward. Dangerous assumptions, I agree, especially when a lot of seniority is already invested, pensions acquired, etc. I'm just glad I didn't need to be a part of it anymore. This is an economy that breeds this type of behavior, yet emboldens companies to take a hard line against even the most senior employees who choose not to become victims.
 
I work for a defense contractor as well. They maintain the "right" to search our vehicles any time we are parked on their property which includes the company parking lot. They also have a policy against any firearms being brought to work including those locked in a trunk of a vehicle.

So park on a city street. Where I work many workers do this and it causes no concern.

If I were the OP I would simply tell the company that one of my hobbys is target shooting and ask about their policies. Likely you will find others their who share your interest in firearms. At my job there are many shooters and there is a Rod and Gun Club (few rods though) which posts our activities and events on the bulletin board right up next to the softball team and the quilters. Think about it there may be no reason to live "In the Closet".

tipoc
 
I'm sure the powers that be at your company agree with the above post

"Don't ask, we don't want to know"

The whole reasoning behind their policy is liability in case you go postal. They know you are not going to go postal and they also know that if you do, no written policy of theirs will make a difference... except possibly in court when the survivors are suing them.

I personally think you should do as you choose. I don't think I would even ask for the written policy to look over... if by some fluke you are caught then just plead ignorance, it can't hurt. If you are a good employee, they'll keep you... if they want to get rid of you, they'll find a reason.
 
Texas employer parking lot bill

greyson97,

The so-called Employer Parking Lot Bill did not pass in the most recent session. It was caught in the "chubbing" tactics used to avoid consideration of the Voter ID bill.

There is a chance that the bill will be brought up in the special session, but it is very slim.
 
CA law

"No reason for you to know California law, but it is specifically not legal to have your handgun in either the glove box or center console. It must be in a locked container in your trunk."

I don't mean to second-guess you, Dav, but I live in CA and my understanding is that it is OK if the gun is simply locked in the trunk but does not need to be locked in an additional container. Can anyone confirm? I don't own a lockable container for my revolver. When I go to the range, I simply put my revolver in the plastic box it came in, lock it in the trunk, and go. Am I violating the law? Thanks!
 
Some places have signs posted allowing any vehicle that enters the premises to be searched! Is there a way that your local range can securely store your firearm during your work hours? I believe in california law that a dealer has to log your firearm if you leave the premises on his books. Regardless, I would find a range closer to home or change my times to shoot to weekends as to not have a liability hanging around in my car. There is just too much risk.

I have this friend who was going to go shooting once and threw his gun in the back seat concealed in a box. He had a sport utility vehicle and there was no trunk. He even had a loaded magazine inserted in the gun and there was extra ammo in the box. He was pulled over for a stupid traffic violation that was his fault and was:eek: He played it cool and took his ticket without giving the officer any lip or reason to search his vehicle. He has since always used an appropriate locked box to transport unloaded handguns. He could have lost all of his gun rights in california for such an infraction if the officer decided to search his vehicle and found the weapon just because he was LAZY.

It's just not worth the risk as unforseen things can and do happen. You can get in a fender bender in the parking lot and the cops investigating suspecting you were high might just want to search your car.:( You may be following every law but violating company policy find yourself fired:mad: California will use any excuse to strip your gun rights. Your intentions don't matter:cool:
 
#30
vegatables
Junior Member


Join Date: 2008-09-10
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 2
CA law

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"No reason for you to know California law, but it is specifically not legal to have your handgun in either the glove box or center console. It must be in a locked container in your trunk."

I don't mean to second-guess you, Dav, but I live in CA and my understanding is that it is OK if the gun is simply locked in the trunk but does not need to be locked in an additional container. Can anyone confirm? I don't own a lockable container for my revolver. When I go to the range, I simply put my revolver in the plastic box it came in, lock it in the trunk, and go. Am I violating the law? Thanks!
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You might check this further. I understand it is okay to have your gun locked in the trunk. However I was told by a CHP Officer that if I threw my ammunition in the trunk also, I would then have a concealed weapon. His advice was to have one, or the other in a locked container, with a California approved lock.
 
Hook686 said:
You might check this further. I understand it is okay to have your gun locked in the trunk. However I was told by a CHP Officer that if I threw my ammunition in the trunk also, I would then have a concealed weapon. His advice was to have one, or the other in a locked container, with a California approved lock.
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FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt)

Don't expect a straight answer from most cops. If they could get away with telling you it had to be in a 200 lb lock box with 256-digit combination, they would. It serves their interests, not yours.

The gun must be unloaded and in a "locked container".
The trunk of your automobile qualifies as a locked container (as long as it locks closed). Ammo does not need to be stored completely separate from the gun.

In fact, a California court ruled in Clark that a pistol in the trunk with a loaded magazine next to the gun was legal and was not a loaded gun. For the gun to be deemed loaded, it must be ready to fire -- i.e. there must be ammunition in the firearm and/or a round in the chamber (a BP gun must be capped or primed).

If you put an unloaded and holstered pistol in your trunk, it's legal, even if you have the magazine loaded (and the magazine is not in the magwell or attached to the firearm). If you take the same gun and magazine, place it in the plastic shipping box and put a lock on the box, it's legal inside the passenger compartment.

There is no statue declaring how robust the lock must be, but I would suggest not pushing it too far. A simple luggage lock might work -- one of those 2 for $4.95 types. It meets the requirement of a "locking container" by using a combination (or key) lock.

In theory, transporting the gun un-concealed, in plain sight on the front seat (unloaded of course) is legal... but that's also a good way to end up laying on pavement or experiencing the handcuffing process too. :p
 
rc said:
Some places have signs posted allowing any vehicle that enters the premises to be searched! Is there a way that your local range can securely store your firearm during your work hours? I believe in california law that a dealer has to log your firearm if you leave the premises on his books. Regardless, I would find a range closer to home or change my times to shoot to weekends as to not have a liability hanging around in my car. There is just too much risk.
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There are several threads here about the rights of employers vs. employees when it comes to what's inside your vehicle. It's private property right vs. your visitation/use rights in some cases.

If an employer has a private lot and posts signs that say your vehicle is subject to search, that's the employer's right. However, throwing a monkey wrench into the works by asking questions about such a search can stir things up with legal counsel. Asking in writing might get you some fun answers to review with your own lawyer. Such as...
When it comes to the company excercising its right to search my vehicle, does that include;
- Opening sealed envelopes inside the vehicle?
- Removing any items secured by fasteners (screws, bolts, fittings, etc.)
- Turning on and/or off the ignition switch?
- Lifting the carpeting or padding?
- Removal of any seat?
- Opening locked containers inside the vehicle (Luggage, gym bags, etc.)
- Opening locked containers not mine (i.e. wife/gf's luggage)
- Forcible removal of any auto parts or opening containers?
- Opening, removing, disconnecting any engine parts or underhood items?

You'll find a lot of things they'll say they won't do. Opening a locked container inside the vehicle when you don't have ownership of the item may be illegal in your state.

If your employer shares a parking lot with other businesses, then I believe they cannot have a blanket search policy (all vehicles subject to search). The actual property owner can do that though.
 
god bless texas. they outlawed allowing companies to dictate what you can have in your car in the parking lot.
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The bill was introduced but did not pass both houses.

The bill passed the senate with a UNANIMOUS vote. It made it through the various committees without getting a SINGLE nay vote. Then the House Calendars Committee sat on it until there was no chance of it's passing. At that point they let it go to the House but there was no time for debate or passage. The House Calendars Committee has effectively killed this bill in the last two legislative sessions.
You'll find a lot of things they'll say they won't do. Opening a locked container inside the vehicle when you don't have ownership of the item may be illegal in your state.
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They will get your permission. If you refuse to give your permission they refuse to let you work there anymore.

It's as simple as that. You want to keep your job you give them permission to search. That takes care of any issues about the legality of the search.
 
In a small company I used to work at, the President brought a .380 into the building he was interested in selling to the Warehouse Manager. It was early morning, about 7am and the WH Manager ejected the magazine and with the muzzle pointed down pulled the trigger. The weapon discharged, the bullet striking the concrete floor and passed through an office wall, missing our Materials Manager, who was also something of an early bird, by about 3 feet. The police were called, reports were filed and the President and WH Manager got the day off w/o pay. Legal advised we needed a "policy" to cover the company's liability in the event something like this happened again and someone really got hurt. The policy was boilerplate, "no guns on company property" and the company could search to enforce.

The actual practice became "no guns in the building" and "don't ask, don't tell" regarding the parking lot. About a year following the ".380 incident", as it became known, I expressed interest purchasing a Remington 870 from the CEO. He told me he'd bring it to company and I could check it out in the parking lot after work. I said OK, but asked if that wasn't a problem with company policy? He looked at me like I had lost all my common sense and said, "you're not going to pull the trigger before checking the chamber, are ya?" "No" says I. "Then check the shotgun out and don't broadcast your business around the office..."

My point is we were a small company that was forced into instituting a CYA policy we had no intention of enforcing unless someone openly brought a gun into the building, or left one in plain sight in a car in the lot.
 
My post has been quoted quite a bit, so I thought I should admit that when I went and checked the actual regulations for California, I found an "or" where I remembered an "and".

So BillCA is quite right - the trunk itself qualifies as a locked container OR you may have it anywhere else in the car in a normal locked container.

The point about the glove box and "utility" box (normally construed to be the center console) still do not qualify as "locked containers".

My apologies for being part of the Errornet! :p
 
In theory, transporting the gun un-concealed, in plain sight on the front seat (unloaded of course) is legal... but that's also a good way to end up laying on pavement or experiencing the handcuffing process too.
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~10 years ago I called the CHP and asked what would be the best way to transport my pistol in my SUV (no trunk). The officer said he was glad I had gotten a hold of him, because he was the expert on that subject. He proceeded to tell me to unload it, place it on the front seat with the action open and a pencil stuck in it. I thought that was great advice.... and promptly went out and bought a locking case. :)
 
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