Universal Military Training and Service Act

This is a very interesting and enlightening thread, and i'm still formulating a (longer) opinion. I wish i had enlisted, but in '75 the Vietnam war had just ended badly, the military was demoralized and in disarray, and i couldn't think of a good reason to do it. Had the timing been different I would have (like, if i were 18-30 y/o now). I think compulsory service, rather than the draft in time of need, is a bad idea on the face of it. Some countries (Israel for ex) make it work to their advantage, I'm told. I have several friends who enlisted in 'Nam, and when I tell them one of my big regrets in life is not having served in the military, they say "You're nuts!" ;) But, it has motivated me to apply for a position as a reserve deputy sheriff, to do my penance.

re:
You know what else builds character, and provides structure? Being down in a ditch shoveling mud out of footings before the inspector arrives, staying up for 2 days to get the final touches on a presentation ready for the board, tracking down a virus in a corporate computer network, walking an 8" cinderblock wall 3 stories in the air to fix some flashing even though you're afraid of heights, teaching teenagers History or English, stocking 400' of shelves before opening the store in one hour, ....
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I have to disagree with this a bit. These examples may build "character", or rather discipline, initiative, reliablility, responsibility, but they don't build "CHARACTER", imo. The reason: all of the above examples of being a responsible employee have at their core one's self interest, rather than the higher purpose of dedication to others or the common good, at a sacrifice to yourself other than sleep. Now, maybe these iaren't a good selection of examples, and omitted citing public service with the likes of the Peace Corp or other voluntary service orgs, i.e. being a volunteer (paid or otherwise) in service to others. Given the potential risk to life and limb, and the other hardships including low pay, military enlistees fall into this category, imo, and deserve our appreciation.
 
IIRC the 13th article of the Bill of Rights as appended to the Constitution of the United States speaks to the term "Involuntary Servitude".

Any way I look at it, slice, dice, or splice it Compulsory Military Service matches Involuntary Servitude and I am aware that in WWI the Supreme Court made some rulings on this. I have not investigated them yet.

Recieved my draft classification, which said that I DID NOT have to serve while in Navy boot camp. Enjoyed some of what I experienced and there were parts that I did not enjoy.

Re: Draftees in service. My observation was that having draftees allowed for more low quality Officers and NCO's to survive. They had plenty of good quality draftees to carry them. My belief is that bringing back Draft will lead to a decline of the quality of the NCO and Officer Corps.

If there should ever be a percieved need for Compulsory Military Service it should be for everyone, Male and Female, without exception. Also the only training should be for Combat Infantryman without exception.
Doing this eliminates all the Do-Gooders who wish to piss away the lives of other peoples children for their passing fantasy belief of what is right.

If people wish to continue in further training or other services they can do that after their initial service period.
There was nothing that riled me more than some Powerful person saying that their child was protected in advanced schooling from the rigors that others were forced to face.
 
I think that part of what is happening on this thread is that some are talking about this:
bullet44, you seem to think that involuntary servititude to the government is a good thing.
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And others are hoping for this:
Then one day, when the dust has settled, they will raise their own children in such a fashion that those children will compete for slots in the military in the same way that people compete for slots in the adult daycare... er, I mean University system.
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Personally I liked the almost all volunteer service, I say almost because when I went in judges in some jurisdictions had the ability to steer problem kids toward the military in the hope of letting them get it together, before they made crime a career. All volunteer keeps the whiners and bedwetters to a minimum, and that is a very good thing.

One thing that volunteer (near) universal service (we all know that it could never be 100%) buys is an almost certain end to presidencies like Klinton's. Precious few who have served honorably can read his letter to Col. Holmes and not get seriously angry. Add to it his anti-war protests on Soviet soil, and Chutney's assertion that "My parents have always loathed the military.".... well you get my drift.

All I can say is that the pinko's have done their work well, and with great dedication. For so many people to see service to their country as slavery to the gummint, is indeed a deep perversion of our countries highest ideals. For an equal or greater number to be able to convince themselves that somehow we will all "know" when we might be needed is further evidence of their handiwork.

I took my nephew to see "Pearl Harbor" this summer, when the movie ended I ask him to remember the sacrifices of the real people represented by the movie. Then I explained the most important lesson of the film, " Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack, a lot of Americans died that day. A whole country survived because there were men and women who cared enough about that country to take the hit for the rest of us. They didn't line up around the block to volunteer the day after Pearl, they were already there."
 
I'm not saying I don't appreciate what the military has to go through for us, but I am saying that we working stiffs deserve just as much appreciation from the miltary as we give to them, for keeping the homefires burning.

I'm not an anti-military person. On the contrary, I tried to enlist into the Marines when I was 18, but turned it down when they didn't accept my "apology" letter for some trouble I had gotten into when I was younger. They wanted a second draft, that kissed a little more butt.

I aced the ASVAB, I missed a perfect score on my SAT's by 60 points, I had to build my own car with my own money when I turned 16, I had my own roofing business when I was 17, and I was a damn good shot with a rifle. Their loss.

Here's what I'm saying -

You remember that Army commercial that showed Army Engineers setting up a bridge for tanks to cross, and the narrator said, "We do more before 5AM than most do all week." You know why they said, "most", instead of "everybody"? Because working stiffs like myself do more than they do, everyday, all week, all year, for the rest our lives until the fingers on the end of my hands won't work anymore. I don't do it for a few weeks of BT and specialization school, then for a few weeks of a "combat" mission. I do it all the time. At 30 years old, my body has seen more work than any life-military man's body will see in an entire lifetime; and I feel every bit of it everyday I come home from work and struggle to try to get my boots off before I pass out in exhaustion. I do it everyday, and I will continue to do it until it kills me.

Don't sell a working man short. He has the discipline to go on, day after day, working his fingers to the bone for this great country of ours. In times of peace, the working stiffs keep this country growing, keeping the prosperity that we have all come to expect from America. In times of invasion, it's the working man that will be hiding behind the trees and rocks preventing advancement - as a matter of fact, it's been said many times that it is our working stiffs' presence that has prevented invasion, out of the fear of what they can accomplish when set to a task, not our military presence. Also, it's the working man that will rebuild this country, should anything militarily or naturally devastating happen to it. We do it because we have to. This is our home, and it always will be.

There's your dedication to our country. I humbly offer my appreciation to our military because of the sacrifice they make, and I do so everyday without even so much as one, not one, 'thanks' from that very same military.

I will give credit where credit is due, will you?

I'm no military man, but don't you dare ever say that I am some how less of a disciplined patriot for it. I just don't need a man to scream it into my face, because I already know I'm an American, and I already know what I have to do for my country.
 
It's good ww2 vets dont see this.!!!
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Mighty presumptuous of you.

My maternal grandfather (ETO infantry, NCO, transferred to bn staff after Cobra, saw a concentration camp 24hours after liberation), and 2 great uncles (one a SeaBee and the other a B-24 copilot who died from injuries recieved over SE Europe0) all volunteered.

I also remember hearing my granddad and great uncle telling all us kids on seperate occasions "Never, ever, go into the service, unless your country needs you; you'll know when that time is".

But what did they know? ;)
 
jmbg29,

For so many people to see service to their country as slavery to the gummint,
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I believe your statement is erroneous.

To be factual, you would have to state:

For so many people to see involuntary, compulsory service to their country under pain of imprisonment or even death as slavery to the gummint,
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For that is what it is.

Do as you are told; join or go to jail. Resist going to jail and be killed.

If that isn't "slavery to the gummint", what is?



How many conscripts were at Lexington and Concord? How many were in the victorious Continental army at Yorktown?


0.



The same folks who piously and confidently predict the revulsion of WWII vets to this abhorrence of conscription should consider the revulsion that the Founders of this country would feel towards compulsory conscription.

They issued a Declaration of Independance, not a Writ of Servitude. If this same spirit of voluntary sacrifice for freedom has truly passed away, then perhaps we should examine the health of our Great Experiment.
 
If this same spirit of voluntary sacrifice for freedom has truly passed away, then perhaps we should examine the health of our Great Experiment.
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That pretty well sums up what I've been thinking.

A people WORTH defending WILL be defended, because they will recognize what needs to be done and DO it. If they cannot recognie the need, then they don't deserve their freedom.

Work on the younger ones RIGHT NOW. I have four kids, and they are all going to know what it means to be an American in the traditional, unabused sense of the word.

IMO, we would have won WWII without the draft, because there were more than enough men who were volunteering for the fight because they recognized that the cause was just and the danger to our way of life was very, very real. On the other hand, Viet Nam was nothing more than a place we sent young men to die for no reason other than the government said "Go". And I see the government involving us in many more situations like Viet Nam than WWII in the forseeable future.
 
Whether or not we could have won WWII without the draft does not change the fact that when we need to fight, ever able bodied man should be part of it.

Vietnam was a mistake. I was there, and at the time I thought it was an honorable war. In retrospect, it wasn't. Part of the reason is the the politicians did not intend to win it. Further, they put their own reputation ahead the lives of men and women. They deserve an especially hot spot in eternity. But if I had it to do over, I would do the same thing that I did. I was a career soldier, but if I hadn't been I would not have run from the draft.

Anytime my nation says go I will go. There is an exception or two, but not many. For example, I would not attack Israel. If they attacked the U.S. I would fight them to the last drop of blood, but I would not attack them. I believe what God said.

We started that nonsense of not winning in Korea. If we don't intend to win we shouldn't send our youth there to fight and die.

Also, we can't be the world's police force. We should only engage in war if it is in the great interest of our own nation. Then we need to win. Even George Bush hadn't learned that in the Gulf War, and neither had his advisor, Colin Powell. I didn't think much of Powell then and I don't now.

I don't know why we think we know what is best for every nation in the world. Freedom is wonderful, but if the citizens of a country aren't willing to die for it, I sure wouldn't want my son and grandson to do it for them.

Having said that, it is not up to the individual to determine if a war is just enough for him to fight, and not suffer the consequence of refusing. There are some who would not fight if the enemy was in their yards. As for me, Ali was a coward and it is a disgrace to idolize him and for him to carry the O. torch.

I am for the draft, and wish my son and grandson had been required to serve two years. They are good men, but the military service would have given them a perspective that they don't have now.

Don't talk to me about freedom unless you are willing to die for it, and that includes the draft!!

I have said this before, but I believe sincerely that if this generation had been the WWII generation, we would have been under either Hitler or Stalin. I don't believe this generation has the guts to suffer what was necessary to win, and I think most would run somewhere. It continues to be a ME generation.

Jerry
 
Tamara ,
I believe your statement is erroneous.
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Only if you put your own spin on it. There are plenty of people on this board and in this country, that see any sort of mlitary service as servitude/slavery. I recall one thread in which none other than Oleg Volk intimated that he would frag his officers if asked to serve. I have stated repeatedly that I would never ask that anyone be compelled to serve. I have also stated, I think quite clearly, that if I found their reasons for not serving unacceptable, that I would not for instance vote for them for public office.

As stated previously
I've always found the Hienlien model to suit my tastes.
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I have also as much as stipulated that it is impractical to implement. People have every right to opt out, just as I have every right to think less of some of them for it.
 
Go back and read the text of the legislation.

This proposal is for one year of basic military training and education. Look at this as an extension of our mandatory K-12 school system. This is GRADE 13 - right after 12th grade. It is a chance for the military training and education to offset slightly the 13+ years of public school indoctrination. If this one year of military training and education is "slavery" or otherwise unacceptable, then the involuntary K-12 (or at least K-10) public schooling is also "slavery" or otherwise unacceptable.
 
Solitar, I have two responses to your comments:

#1, I do in fact believe that compulsory school attendance in schools run by the government is unacceptable, so my objection to mandatory military service is completely consistent with my principles.

#2, the "military training and education" that is proposed will be brought to you by the same government that brings you the K-12 school system (abject failure that it is). What on earth makes you think that a 13th grade would do anything but expand on the prior years of indoctrination. It would only serve to further pound home the notion that citizens are subjects that exist to serve the state, not the other way around.
 
There is an exception or two, but not many. For example, I would not attack Israel.
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So there are situations where you wouldn't volunteer and wouldn't obey if drafted? Suppose other people have similar situations of their own? There'll be anarchy! ;)

Don't talk to me about freedom unless you are willing to die for it, and that includes the draft!!
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How can you fight for freedom as an unwilling conscript; to wit, a slave?


...and I am more than willing to die for freedom. Freedom. The freedom to live my own life. Freedom. The freedom to voluntarily lay down my life for a cause that is just, not to be frittered away at coercive gunpoint for an ambitious politician's imperial aspirations. Freedom. The freedom to speak as I please, and defend myself from unjust armed coercion. Freedom. The freedom of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" not "Unwilling death, Involuntary servitude, and the Pursuit of a Fuzzy Agenda in a far-off civil war". Freedom. The freedom to keep and bear arms, not to be sent to strip arms from Kosovars so that they may be more easily killed.


...and when these children, indoctrinated for twelve years in the Government's Public Mind Control Camps, and then trained to fight and follow orders, are ordered to come for your books, guns, Bibles or whatever by some hypothetical corrupt future administration, how willing to die for freedom will you be?
 
What Tamara said:

...and I am more than willing to die for freedom. Freedom. The freedom to live my own life. Freedom. The freedom to voluntarily lay down my life for a cause that is just, not to be frittered away at coercive gunpoint for an ambitious politician's imperial aspirations. Freedom. The freedom to speak as I please, and defend myself from unjust armed coercion. Freedom. The freedom of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" not "Unwilling death, Involuntary servitude, and the Pursuit of a Fuzzy Agenda in a far-off civil war". Freedom. The freedom to keep and bear arms, not to be sent to strip arms from Kosovars so that they may be more easily killed.

Boy, Tamara, I wish I had said that.
 
I still maintain that if the cause is just, there will be MORE than enough men and women on the right side of it to ensure victory WITHOUT having to conscript a single one of them.

The draft is useful only when the government realizes that the cause is marginal at best, and it knows that it will have a tough time raising an army to fight for it. That's the big difference between Viet Nam, Korea, and WWI/II.

I'm all for providing such training, but I think is should be voluntary in nature. I believe we call that the reserves and National Guard.
 
Based on the discussions with other TFLers, I think that my statement about fragging officers was a bad idea. The officers would really have no culpability in the situation; on the contrary, they are fighting for my homeland. Therefore, if I did say that, I was in error.

If *asked* to serve, I would consider the cause and decide. Considering that I like living in America and can't imagine living elsewhere, what do you think I would do if this place was in danger?

If *ordered* to serve on the pain of punishment and I disagreed with the cause, I would gun for whoever gave the order. Not the MPs enforcing it, but for the people who decided that draft was a good idea. Same way that I would gun for people who would give orders to disarm US civilians. In my opinion, there's little difference between people who'd take my guns from me (leaving my home defenseless) and those who'd take me from my home (with a similar result).

The issue is not whether fighting for one's country is necessary (of course it is, all too often!) but whether the end justifies the means (the draft). If I agree with the end, I would overlook the means. If I disagree with the end, I won't.
 
Bogbabe, the answer to your #2 is that it would be run by the "military" which even in its more watered down PC state than when I was in would be a helluvan improvement and even eye opener compared to the K-12 liberal (democrat socialist) schools. Note that the curriculum includes geography, history and other subjects likely no longer taught much in the K-12 daycare system.

As to the arguments some have made here which amount to a libertarian attitude toward defense, i.e., let the volunteers handle it. We've seen how far "voluntary" defense of the RKBA by "80 million" gunowners has gotten us in a battle which is mere paper and words. If we really need armed defense of this nation, we'll be screwed by our own people who will sit back and wait for somebody else to save their butts.

Having everyone (and I agree that is should be "everyone") have one year of basic military training and education would also give us a huge base upon which to mobilize volunteers if we needed to. Waiting until TSHTF is a sure way to waste the experienced soldiers/aircrews/seamen on the front lines who would also be needed as drill sergeants and instructors for the incoming raw volunteers. Having even a tenth of the graduates of this proposed program ready to hold the line without more than a week's refresher would be a great help to the volunteers who are holding the line until help arrives.

I would add two amendments to that proposed legislation.
1) That draftees can not be assigned to overseas duty.
2) That graduates of this program be required to take their duty rifle (M16 or better) home with them in fully automatic condition and with several mags of ammunition - all to be turned back in at the end of their "militia" period - perhaps five years instead of the Swiss age of 42 (or let 'em keep the rifle and other perks such as unlimited health care for continued militia duty).
 
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Yankytrash:

I understand better what you were trying to say... your last post clarified it well. Re:
At 30 years old, my body has seen more work than any life-military man's body will see in an entire lifetime; and I feel every bit of it everyday I come home from work and struggle to try to get my boots off before I pass out in exhaustion. I do it everyday, and I will continue to do it until it kills me.
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Man, you need a vacation! And you're too bright to work your body to death like a migrant worker. You gotta figure out a better way. :eek: There's work, and there's work, and i try to substitute brains for brawn as often as possible ;) (and i've worked hard, since i was 18).

Everyone who gets up every day and does and honest day's work, and that includes stay-at-home mothers (and fathers) who have decided that their kids deserve that sacrifice, deserves respect. Those who make the (altruistic) decision to do a job or undertake a career that has inherent risks to their life and limb while in the service or protection of others or their country get more, in my book (if they are honest and have integrity, of course).
 
I too know that the public school system in this county is a joke, at best. I went through the public school system not to long ago, and was it was always told to me indirectly, that standing up for your self was wrong. Deffending yourself was wrong as well. And God help you if you realised you could have an opinion of your own! Adding a 13th year of the same old BS will get us no where. What did you learn in (public) school?

We have to start from the ground up on this one. If done right, public education would take half as long, and teach twice as much. We should include defending this country in there somewhere. What ever happen to rifle teams? They turned PC with air rifles, or were cut out completely. Not that knowing how to use a rifle is enough to deffend a country, but cutting the programs like that was a step back. We should streamline the educational system, and add this training in there somwhere.

As for the present form of brain washing, uh, I mean military, thats not much better than the schools. They are trying to add to a bad program to get it to do what is is supposed to in the first place. It too, needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. And you can start by removing the politics from the foundation! Teach the all the people to think for themselves, as well as to not question orders at the wrong time. No one needs to question orders on the battlefield, but they need to be able to give input ahead of time, if possible.

Start from the ground up, and we will have a system that works, start to finish. Try to add to the already incorrect answer, and all you get is a longer incorrect answer.

And finally: To all of those who try try to dissarm the general public.... ARE YOU INSANE!!!!! Thats it, disarm the public farther, so that the next time a terrorist wants to hijack something, all they will need is well made ink pen. You politicians need to learn the difference between right and wrong, as well as the difference between a law abiding citizen and a BG! If the passengers on those flights had been able to keep the gun that they normally carry, and the pilots had been armed, then I doubt 4000 good people would have died on that dark Sept. day!

If you want to reduce crime to almost nothing, then lift all bans on guns and knives, and start encouraging people to carry a concealed handgun. You will never disarm the bad guys, so why make it impossible for the good guys to get the tools to protect themselves, and the politicians. At least without becoming a BG in the process.

Oh yea, and also what Tamara said!
 
Tamara,
Yes, I would not ATTACK Israel. God chose them as His chosen nation and said clearly that He blessed them that blessed Israel and cursed those who cursed them. As a Christian my first loyalty is to God. If Israel attacked my country, then I would fight them. That is a different thing. I also would not obey if I were told to kill citizens in this nation unless they were causing and were part of anarchy, and there was no other way to quell it. I happen to believe the NG did the correct thing at Kent State.

These are different from so many claiming that they love this nation and then saying if the nation called and drafted them they would be slaves. That is a deplorable attitude no matter who says it. However, it is fairly typical of the young and the anarchist, of which I believe Libertarians approach being. Drafted = slavery?? You folks don't know what slavery really is. I don't claim to either, but I know it isn't being drafted against your will.

I think this little ditty pretty well sums up the attitude of so many here, and in the country.

"I had a little tea party this afternoon at three.
Twas very small, just three in all, I, Myself, and Me.
Myself ate all the sandwiches, while I drank all the tea.
Twas also I who ate the pie, and passed the cake to Me."

I still don't think most have the courage to go to war. It is one kind of courage to stand individually in the face of a personal attack. It is another to be in a battle where you don't know where the next round is coming from, and to leave family, for maybe years, and still do as you need to do day after day and week after week to win.

I guess I have made it plain how I feel about it all, so I'll give you all the last word - or at least I'll try to.

Jerry
 
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