Universal background checks

ligonierbill said:
I disagree with a key point of this discussion, that the only way to enforce "universal" background checks (some exceptions are necessary) is registration. That would be one way, and I'm sure a lot of anti-gun folks think it is a clever way to get the registration, and confiscation, that they really want.

Expanding the current FFL "background" check to all sales, including those between individuals, is registration.

Guns don't have backgrounds, so it doesn't make sense that the licensee identify the arm you purchase and retain a record unless the point is to register that arm to you. He doesn't need a record of the arm to know whether you are an eligible buyer.

The rational answer to a problem of ineligible buyers would be to issue an ID to any eligible buyer and permit him to buy as he pleases from whoever he pleases without further interference.

Whether that poses a constitutional problem is a different matter.
 
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rc said:
The only legal requirement for the seller would be that the seller use the information on the purchase permit and a valid state ID to determine the buyer was not a prohibited person. The buyer could be required to keep the name and address information of the buyer for a period of 10 years as a protection from criminal liability.
I assume you meant that the seller would be required to keep the information for ten years.

Aside from the burden that would pout on private sellers (I can't imagine that if I sold a gun next week I might be able to find where I put the buyer's name and address five years from now), having such information recorded anywhere becomes a de facto registration. After all, 4473s aren't submitted to the federal government, they stay with the FFL. Yet after any major shooting where the firearm(s) is/are recovered, the BATFE knows within 48 hours or less exactly where and when it/they were bought -- by tracking the 4473s.

It's a mystery to me why any state's carry license/permit isn't all you need to buy a firearm, even from an FFL. Not just those states whose licenses/permits formally qualify for NICS -- I'm talking about all states. I believe all states that issue permits conduct a background check first. Even states like Pennsylvania, which has no training requirement. Ergo, if I have a carry permit, I have already passed a background check. Why do I have to pass another one if I want to buy a gun? Likewise, if I walk into a gun shop wearing a gun on my belt, and especially if the FFL knows that I have bought guns from him and passed the background check -- what's the purpose of subjecting me to yet another background check? I already own a gun! I could walk in wearing two Glocks with true high-capacity magazines, yet I have to pass a background check to buy a Ruger Single Six .22 caliber revolver. Why?
 
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I stumbled across an article in the Guardian that was written by the Parkland students. It's interesting for showing us what they are demanding ... as well as for showing us how their demands demonstrate their ignorance of the topic they are speaking and writing about:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...parkland-students-manifesto-americas-gun-laws

Ban semi-automatic weapons that fire high-velocity rounds

Civilians shouldn’t have access to the same weapons that soldiers do. That’s a gross misuse of the second amendment.
But ... the semi-automatic weapons we "civilians" can buy are NOT the same weapons that soldiers have. And, in fact, the scary .223/5.56x45 round that they are so wrought up about is not allowed for hunting deer in many states because it isn't lethal enough to provide humane kills.

Further, except for .22LR, pretty much every semi-automatic rifle fires "high velocity" rounds. So this isn't a call to ban just "assault weapons," taken on its face this would ban ALL semi-automatic rifles, and possibly many semi-automatic handguns. Bye-bye Ruger Mini 14 and Mini 30.

Ban accessories that simulate automatic weapons

High-capacity magazines played a huge role in the shooting at our school. In only 10 minutes, 17 people were killed, and 17 others were injured. This is unacceptable.

That’s why we believe that bump stocks, high-capacity magazines and similar accessories that simulate the effect of military-grade automatic weapons should be banned.
But "high capacity" magazines don't have anything to do with rate of fire. And the shooter at Parkland used 10-round magazines.

Establish a database of gun sales and universal background checks

We believe that there should be a database recording which guns are sold in the United States, to whom, and of what caliber and capacity they are.

Just as the department of motor vehicles has a database of license plates and car owners, the Department of Defense should have a database of gun serial numbers and gun owners. This data should be paired with infractions of gun laws, past criminal offenses and the status of the gun owner’s mental health and physical capability.

Together with universal background checks, this system would help law enforcement stop a potentially dangerous person before they commit a gun crime.
As has been noted, universal background checks can't work without registration. Here, the students are openly calling for registration.

Registration leads to confiscation. Canada proved that registration was NOT effective in reducing crime. A registration system would not have stopped the Las Vegas shooting, and (by itself) a registration system would not have prevented the Parkland shooting. Registration also would not have prevented the Pulse Club shooting.

Change privacy laws to allow mental healthcare providers to communicate with law enforcement

As seen in the tragedy at our school, poor communication between mental healthcare providers and law enforcement may have contributed to a disturbed person with murderous tendencies and intentions entering a school and gunning down 17 people in cold blood.

We must improve this channel of communication. To do so, privacy laws should be amended. That will allow us to prevent people who are a danger to themselves or to others from purchasing firearms. That could help prevent tragedies such as the Parkland massacre.
Slippery slope. 'Nuff said.

Close gun show and secondhand sales loopholes

Thanks to loopholes, people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to buy firearms are able to purchase them at gun shows and secondhand sales. The existence of these loopholes reflects the ineptitude of state and federal legislators.

If we are serious about preventing people from purchasing deadly weapons, we must monitor sales that take place at gun shows and on secondhand markets. This is especially urgent given the danger posed by mentally unstable and violent individuals armed with firearms.
This is really a second call for universal background checks and registration.

Allow the CDC to make recommendations for gun reform

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention should be allowed to conduct research on the dangers of gun violence. The fact that they are currently prohibited from doing so undermines the first amendment. It also violates the rights of the American people.

It is hypocritical to rally people to protect the second amendment, while remaining silent on the ways that blocking research violates one of our most basic constitutional freedoms.
Fact: The CDC is not prohibited from conducting research. They are prohibited from spending federal money on lobbying for gun control. That said -- IMHO the CDC should be prohibited from studying "the dangers of gun violence." Murder is not a disease. You can't develop a new antibiotic to cure someone of homicidal thoughts, and you can't develop a vaccine to immunize people against gunshots. The CDC should stick to researching diseases.

Raise the firearm purchase age to 21

In a few months from now, many of us will be turning 18. We will not be able to drink; we will not be able to rent a car. Most of us will still be living with our parents. We will not be able to purchase a handgun. And yet, we will be able to purchase an AR-15.

Why is it that we will be able to legally obtain a weapon that has the ability to fire over 150 rounds and kill 17 people in about six minutes? That is unacceptable. It makes no sense that to buy a handgun, you have to be 21, but a gun of mass destruction and devastation like the AR-15 can be purchased when one is just becoming an adult.

Okay. But motor vehicles driven by teenagers kill a lot of people every year, too. Let's be fair -- if we're going to raise the age for buying a gun to 21, then we should raise the age for everything associated with maturity to 21: drivers licenses, voting, age of consent for sex, age to marry, age to enlist in the military ... everything.

Dedicate more funds to mental health research and professionals

Federal and state government should earmark more funds specifically for mental health services. Those with mental health issues, especially those who express aggressive, violent, suicidal and/or homicidal thoughts should have the opportunity to receive the help they need regardless of their economic status.

Schools specifically should receive more funds in order to hire more psychologists and guidance counselors who can aid students suffering from PTSD, depression and other debilitating mental illnesses.

Many of those who commit mass shootings suffer from these kinds of illnesses. It is essential that more funds be dedicated to mental health research.
Many school shooters were victims of bullying, too. That inconvenient factoid seems to be conspicuously absent from their manifesto.

Increase funding for school security

We believe that schools should be given sufficient funds for school security and resource officers to protect and secure the entire campus. As a school of over 3,000 students, teachers and faculty, Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school was only supplied funds to hire one on-campus armed resource officer by the state.

Without backup, this officer’s hesitation proved to be disastrous and allowed for the senseless deaths of people who were killed on the third floor of the 1200 building.

Though this idea has been proposed in the past, these funds should not be appropriated from the already scarce funding for public education. Governments should find resources to secure the millions of children that attend public schools without taking away from the quality of education that is offered at these institutions.
This ignores the fact that a single officer took out another school shooter just a couple of weeks after Parkland. The issue isn't that there weren't enough cops at Parkland, the issue is that the cop they had was a coward. Also, after the shooting there were multiple officers assigned to Parkland, and the students complained because seeing all those cops made them feel like they were in prison. So they want to be made secure, but they don't want to see any security measures. As a song from my late mother's era said, "You can't have one without the other."
 
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I could walk in wearing two Glocks with true high-capacity magazines, yet I have to pass a background check to buy a Ruger Single Six .22 caliber revolver. Why?

Because they wrote the law that way. On purpose.

This goes back to what I said earlier, the problem isn't just the idea of background checks, its also the specific way the law(s) are worded.

WA got a UBS..er, pardon.. UBC law a couple years back. After being defeated in the Legislature, over 3 different election cycles (that I know of), they went the ballot initiative route. Because they were able to manipulate the opinion of enough people in the 5 counties of the Seattle metro area, it passed there. It only passed in those five counties, every other county in the state defeated it.

That didn't matter. Those five counties has enough people in them that passed the law to make it the law for the entire state.

It's the most poorly writing law I've ever seen. It's so poorly written that the WA State Police (and other WA LEOs) have refused to enforce it. (qualified with, refused to enforce it absent further clarification of what is, and is not a covered "transfer") Its been a couple years, but so far, as far as I know, that clarification has not been forthcoming, yet.

I see voluntary compliance at gun shows. One dealer sets up and does nothing but run the background checks for all the other dealers at the show.

And, yes, its one check per gun, if you buy from different people. Same day, could even be in the same hour, but if you buy a gun from two (or 3 or..) different dealers, each time you need a background check run.

I can see, a degree of justification (other than the wording of the law) for A check. One. The first one. I can see no valid reason or use for the 2nd, or 3rd, or whatever check other than to obey the wording of the law.

I have met dealers who, speaking as private citizens, detest the background check idea, but speaking as an FFL dealer (a businessman), they love it., It makes them MONEY!!! (nothing makes you money like a law that requires people to use your business...)

As to being able to have a "system" that does not require/create a registration database, it can be done. It could be done, except the anti's absolutely will not accept any idea that doesn't create a registration system.

They won't even entertain the idea. They refuse to consider, let alone support, any idea that isn't their own on this issue. As someone else said, so much for "compromise"....

As to enforcing such a law, after the point of sale..what a nightmare..:eek:

What are they going to do, come into my home and demand proof I had a background check run (which I do not, and CANNOT have) on each and every firearm I own???

They aren't doing it, today, but that doesn't mean that they never will...

It's a scary thought, that some jackbooted thug of an enforcement official (and whether they wear their jackboots openly or concealed doesn't matter, its an attitude, not an article of footwear I'm referring to..) demanding to see "proof" that I had a background check run on my grandfather's double barrel shotgun that has been in my family for 110 years!!!!!

You want to check something? How about, instead of checking me, and millions of other people who are not doing anything wrong or criminal, each and every time we buy a gun, you put that effort into creating a "watchdog" agency, who SOLE function is to go through all court records, everywhere, at all levels, to ensure all are/have been reported to NICS??
(and be sure to check and include the records of all those who have since died, as well. After all, they still vote in some places, so they might be out there trying to buy a gun, as well...:rolleyes::D

No doubt such a task is a moving target, but it would create lifetime employment for a number of people. Isn't that a good thing???
(and no, don't ask me to pay for it, and don't steal my money to do so without even the courtesy of asking.)
 
DaleA said:
WITH registration when a prohibited person is found with a gun you quickly and easily go back to the last legal owner
Only in cases where the registered owner is too stupid to grind off the serial number. And I really doubt people knowingly selling registered guns to felons would leave the serial numbers intact.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
Fact: The CDC is not prohibited from conducting research. They are prohibited from spending federal money on lobbying for gun control. That said -- IMHO the CDC should be prohibited from studying "the dangers of gun violence." Murder is not a disease. You can't develop a new antibiotic to cure someone of homicidal thoughts, and you can't develop a vaccine to immunize people against gunshots. The CDC should stick to researching diseases.

Yes, the CDC has no business studying gun violence. That is a criminology issue, not a public health issue. Yes, gun violence can affect the overall health of the public, but that's like saying that how to deal with North Korea is a public health issue and that thus we should be consulting public health experts on what to do. Yeah, if North Korea launches a nuke into the U.S., it will affect the health of the American public, but the issue of how to deal with North Korea is a foreign policy and national security issue and those are the people whom you consult.

On gun violence, that is a criminology and law enforcement issue and those are whom you consult. Not public health experts. That hasn't stopped the public health community though from thinking they are qualified to comment on the issue :rolleyes:
 
LogicMan said:
Yes, gun violence can affect the overall health of the public, ...
That's a stretch but, if you want to go there, overall I think automobiles and bathtubs each probably injure and kill lots more people than firearms, yet I don't see the CDC whining about not being allowed to do research on automobile safety and bathtun safety, and I don't see them doing much advocacy (i.e. lobbying) for automobile or bathtub safety. Nor should they.

The name is, after all, the Center for "Disease" control. Their role and function is to study diseases. Just fly the mission.
 
When they began discussing the "disease" of "gun violence" they kept the mission, but changed the targeting.

the logic is simple. False, but simple.

Diseases cause harm, therefore anything that causes harm is a disease (of some kind).

Killing is bad...guns kill, therefore guns = bad

Free will causes problems, problems are bad, therefore free will = bad

UNLESS your free will agrees with mine, in which case, it is good. :rolleyes:

:eek::D
 
I don't mind the idea of universal background checks. I don't buy and sell a lot of guns but when I dispose of a gun it is either to a person I know and have reason to believe is not a prohibited individual (they have a CCW) or I accept the best offer I can get from one of the gun store vendors (no an individual) at a gun show.

As others have noted how are you going to enforce it exactly? Who is going to be responsible for the "green light"? How long is it going to take? Who is responsible for verifying identity? Can I use the presence of a state ID that would have been considered valid for the individual I performed the background check on as an affirmative defense in the event of identify theft? Does a background check indemnify me from any further liability?
 
The government can't even properly handle the no fly list. Why would they do any better with this?

So you got 2 options with the government: raging incompetence or deep state maliciousness. The constitution was designed to protect us from the government, not make us subjects of that government.
 
The government can't even properly handle the no fly list. Why would they do any better with this?

So you got 2 options with the government: raging incompetence or deep state maliciousness. The constitution was designed to protect us from the government, not make us subjects of that government.
^^^^This.

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Only in cases where the registered owner is too stupid to grind off the serial number.

They could make that illegal if its not already. They have background checks here at the push of a button i am sure they could do similar in America, like it or not. PS And a ballistic test for handguns.
 
They could make that illegal if its not already.

It already is illegal, and those serial numbers in most cases can be recovered. If they are stamped (and most are), then the metal beneath has been compacted and a series of chemicals added can reveal the serial number by slightly changing the color of the metal in the compacted area.
 
First, because they most certainly lead to registration, either of guns or of gun owners. You decide which is worse.

Second, because they're unenforceable against prohibited persons under either Haynes v. U.S. (SCOTUS, 1968), the A5 or the A8, depending on circumstances. Unless and until we can enforce them, at the very least, against those already convicted of crimes punishable by more than a year in jail, there is no good reason to place additional restrictions on lawful gun owners.

Third, given the evidence of horrible reporting problems that we've seen in the current system, the problem isn't that there aren't enough background checks. It's that gov't agencies are ignoring the flags that are being waved.

Fourth, not one more inch. We've given enough. The antigunners have been openly telling us for decades that they want to take all of our guns. Their claims that "nobody wants to take your guns" ring hollow in light of what I'm seeing on the national landscape. Their use of the word "compromise" is wholly inappropriate. If I let you keep half of your cash so that I don't beat the snot out of you and take all of it, it's not a compromise. That's how a protection racket works.


This. Somewhere on the horizon in the U.S., probably within the next decade or so, I see a national gun registry. That's the only way universal background checks will work on the guns already in circulation prior to a universal background check being passed. Soon after a national registry, there will undoubtedly be a start of incremental restrictions on some/all kinds of guns on the registry so you may not be able to give/sell it to anyone else, for example. I don't think the gun grabbers will have the patience for the gun owners to die off in 40-60 years or risk the law being repealed, so some incremental confiscation/forced turn in/destruction/etc. will come next...
 
manta49 said:
They could make that illegal if its not already. They have background checks here at the push of a button i am sure they could do similar in America, like it or not. PS And a ballistic test for handguns.
It is already illegal to remove, alter or deface the serial number on a firearm. The way the law is worded, whoever is in possession of a firearm with a removed, altered or defaced serial number is presumed to be the person who committed the unlawful act of having removed, altered or defaced the serial number. It's a felony offense on the federal level, and many states have their own versions, as well.

Some states tried ballistic fingerprinting. This is why new firearms for awhile usually had a fired case in the package. The "technology" never solved a single gun crime, but it cost the states that used it a lot of money.
 
Like stated early on, UBC's will be unenforceable without registration.

With 300,000,000 (plus?) firearms already in circulation how are they going to enforce that? Wouldn't prosecution have to prove that the transfer occurred after the law took effect? (You have the right to remain silent...)

HRC and the Brady bunch repeatedly bragged that over 1 million firearm sales were stopped by the NICS system. So, where are all the prosecutions for lying on the 4473? They don't enforce the existing background check laws and they want more background checks. (Note: The 1 million sales number was a lie; the real number was 100,000+ but still...).
 
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