Unintentional Double Taps

By the specs it is virtually identical to the S&W M&P M2.0 trigger.
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In handling the two they sure don't seem identical. The M&P 2.0 has a nice trigger but the PPQ is both lighter in feel and in terms of weight for those I've measured. The reset to me is also noticeably shorter on the PPQ, at least talking stock versus stock. Now I haven't owned a M&P 2.0 but I have dry fired a few and owned a few M&Ps with Performance Center sears. I've owned 2 PPQs and a half dozen plus M&Ps and even after APEX kits the M&Ps weren't quite like the PPQ.

Ironically, my FDE gun does have a safety while actually being less prone to AD.
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I'm not really sure I buy the idea that by being a lb. lighter it's really notably more prone to an AD, but that's not really a debate we need to have.

I like the S&W trigger but am a bit unsettled that such a system does not include a thumb safety.
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The system is drop safe. It is not user proof, nor is any system really.

I carry the 4.25" gun with an empty chamber. Not ideal but neither is a cocked and UNlocked single action.
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What one person does is completely his/her call. But were I you, I'd pick a different carry gun. To me empty chamber carry is crazy.

Edited to be less grumpy
 
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"The other alternative is a mechanical failing in the pistol itself."

Why is that seemingly impossible, especially is someone has tried to "tune" the trigger pull. It is not uncommon for a sear engagement to fail as the gun wears, due to several factors, including improper attempts at "gunsmithing".

A pull weight of over 5 pounds and a trigger movement of .1 inch does not seem unsafe, but if the trigger pull has significantly changed over a short period, it might be a good idea to have the pull checked by a gunsmith or the factory. Things are often relative; a 5 pound pull might be unsafe if the norm for a gun is 10 pounds and that is what a shooter is expecting.

Jim
 
In handling the two they sure don't seem identical.
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Most reviewers have been pretty impressed by the M2.0 trigger. I reviewed the G&A article and the pull weight is actually about 6# in the 4.25" and 7+# in the 5", so a bit heavier than the Walther. And there is some creep but it is not gritty, at least after a few rounds. I believe the reset, measured at the center of pressure would be about the same.

Admittedly I have never touched a PPQ so these measurements are all I have to go by.

At some point, lighter pull weight will be a safety issue. Whether the two S&Ws represent such a case will depend on the situation. Ya know, I just pulled both pistols out and I can no longer tell any difference in the pull weight. Hmm. Honestly both felt "creaky" as shipped but seem to improve quickly. My 4.25 may just have been ahead of the 5" in this process.

The system is drop safe. It is not user proof, nor is any system really.
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Very true. However, you won't find many people carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked (Hey, it's drop safe!), depending on perfect execution to keep them from shooting their feet off.

What one person does is completely his/her call. But were I you, I'd pick a different carry gun. To me empty chamber carry is crazy.
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Yeah, there are a few paths to follow and one is a different gun. I never rule out an upgrade. It feels kind of Luddite to say it but I never saw much problem with a well executed DA/SA semi-auto, from a safety or performance standpoint.
 
I've got nothing against DA/SA and it sounds like it might be a good option for you. You could even look at a Walther P99 if you like striker pistols but want DA/SA.

To me striker fired pistols are not comparable to a 1911 cocked and unlocked. The trigger travel is generally more (pretty significantly so IMO), the trigger pull weight is generally higher (though some are pretty close to a stock 1911 to be fair), and you may blow off drop safety but that is a factor when it comes to firearms. Between the blade safety on the trigger and the striker block they're far more drop safe than a cocked and unlocked 1911, that's just a fact (I might even argue they're more drop safe than a 1911 with the safety on but no firing pin block, as the original design entailed).

I've carried literally every system mentioned in this thread from DA/SA with safety, to DA/SA with no safety, to cocked and locked, to striker fired pistols with no safeties. I do not feel now nor have I felt that carrying a striker fired pistol requires any more "perfect execution" to be safe than any other system. As someone that has had a negligent discharge himself (and learned the hard way) and read a number of accounts of others, the great majority of NDs seem to happen when people press triggers on pistols they think are unloaded but aren't. In that case once you've made the decision to press that trigger whether it's a heavy pull or a safety you need to swipe off then you go through that process and it happens regardless.

But if you feel differently then you should go with what works for you. If I've learned anything these past years it's that what works for one doesn't always work for another. Firearm choices, even down to trigger mechanisms, can become almost a religion that people get very particular in defending.


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Are you talking about a series 80?
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Yes, and I assume that most modern renditions use the same safety improvements. I know Colt makes some Series 70 guns still but they are special cases.

I am no 1911 guru, nor do I aspire to be. I am open to being corrected.
 
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To me striker fired pistols are not comparable to a 1911 cocked and unlocked. The trigger travel is generally more (pretty significantly so IMO), the trigger pull weight is generally higher (though some are pretty close to a stock 1911 to be fair), and you may blow off drop safety but that is a factor when it comes to firearms. Between the blade safety on the trigger and the striker block they're far more drop safe than a cocked and unlocked 1911, that's just a fact.
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The thing is, "striker fired" has virtually nothing to do with trigger pull. A striker gun can be true DA, 60% pre-cocked, or fully SA. I think there is a lot of confusion about that.

Not blowing off drop safety at all. It just should not be the entire safety package in a single action pistol. Triggers do get pulled particularly while re-holstering. It's not always a finger that does the pulling. Better than a thumb safety to make me feel better while re-holstering would be a hammer to keep my thumb behind.
 
Yea I know that striker pistols can function in different ways (even DA/SA and true DAO). I've owned most of them. For my purposes the level of precook for the striker really isn't a concern of mine.

While triggers do get pressed accidentally, that's still the user. People shouldn't be in such a rush to reholster. If you're reholstering it's because you've determined that the threat has abated. Slow down a second. Part of holstering is making sure the holster is clear of obstructions and that your cover garment isn't in the holster. A lot of times when it comes to discharges while holstering it's because people are using cheap holsters that fold in on themselves and end up getting into the trigger guard. To me a holster with a rigid opening that keeps itself open is paramount. If you're really concerned of your holster pulling the trigger of your pistol I'd suggest getting a different holster.


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James K said:
"The other alternative is a mechanical failing in the pistol itself."



Why is that seemingly impossible, especially is someone has tried to "tune" the trigger pull. It is not uncommon for a sear engagement to fail as the gun wears, due to several factors, including improper attempts at "gunsmithing".



A pull weight of over 5 pounds and a trigger movement of .1 inch does not seem unsafe, but if the trigger pull has significantly changed over a short period, it might be a good idea to have the pull checked by a gunsmith or the factory. Things are often relative; a 5 pound pull might be unsafe if the norm for a gun is 10 pounds and that is what a shooter is expecting.



Jim
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I never said it was seemingly impossible. I think the user is more likely the issue but if I didn't think mechanical failure was possible I wouldn't have mentioned it.


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For my purposes the level of precook for the striker really isn't a concern of mine.
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As long as we realize that the level of pre-cock will greatly affect the trigger pull. Glock versus either of these strikers are worlds apart.

To me a holster with a rigid opening that keeps itself open is paramount.
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Agreed. Good sturdy Kydex is a wonderful thing. I cringe every time a see a guy running drills and virtually slamming his pistol back in the holster in between. What's the rush?

Apologies to the OP for dragging this off course.
 
True it will affect the trigger pull, but to me the weight of that pull is more the driving factor, both in terms of my performance and my impression of safety in terms of negligent discharges. I've had stock M&Ps with 6.5 lb. triggers and Glocks with 5.5 lb. triggers despite the M&P being much closer to SA than a Glock (and with APEX parts basically SA). So the amount of striker cocking isn't always a perfect predictor of the resulting pull (though the crispness of the break will be different and the more SA like pistols have a more sudden release of the striker that IMO seems crisper).

I know there are those that argue the Glock is safer because they claim that until the striker is cocked fully there is not enough energy to actually detonate a primer were the striker to release from a mechanical failure. I've seen people claim that's true and others claim it's false. To me whether true or false the vast majority of striker pistols people buy still have a striker block. That has to fail regardless of the amount of precock. I don't have documented probabilities in terms of the chances of that happening, but from searching it seems extremely rare unless someone decided they knew better and messed with the striker block. So to me the degree of precock isn't likely to affect the overall safety when you consider the chances of the striker block failing.


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Yeah, Glock triggers can be pretty light (or not) but with a long cocking action. I really don't know which is safer. Plenty of ADs with Glocks too.

Thinking through the many details of carrying (like holster design and trigger discipline) is the ultimate safety. We make a lot of decisions along the way. And for me, right now, I've decided that an empty chamber is less risky to me than a loaded one. As you say, this doesn't necessarily apply to others.
 
I was once shooting at a coyote with a cheap AR 15 and had it accidently bump fire about 8 rounds:eek: Since then I have got good at bump firing, and have learned why it did this, it was on a bipod and I didn't have it tight against my shoulder.
 
Oh I would completely agree that in terms of an AD/ND an empty chamber is definitely safer. But for me carrying a pistol is done in the unfortunate chance I might have to use that pistol, not just to avoid AD/ND. Given that I can't guarantee I'll have the time or access to both hands to be able to chamber a round, I go with a chambered round. And again I'm not telling you what to do but if the weight of the trigger or the degree of precock is your concern, there are other options out there you might want to explore. The great part of the gun world today is that there is an option for just about every preference.
 
Given that I can't guarantee I'll have the time or access to both hands to be able to chamber a round, I go with a chambered round.
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Yep, it's a trade off for me. Given two hands, loading the chamber should be quick but if I am already grappling or hurt it could bite my butt. I'm going to take that risk for the moment. Or carry my "very safe from AD" Keltec. :D
 
Yes, and I assume that most modern renditions use the same safety improvements. I know Colt makes some Series 70 guns still but they are special cases.

I am no 1911 guru, nor do I aspire to be. I am open to being corrected.
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Correction: Most Colt, Kimber, some S&W, Para, Auto Ord, some Sig, maybe a few other 1911 mutants have mechanical firing pin obstructions.
Some others consider a titanium firing pin to be adequate drop protection.
In general, the higher priced the gun, the closer to standard lockwork.


I have handled but not shot the S&W Plastic M&P 2.0. If the trigger is significantly better than the original, I am not sensitive enough to tell it.
 
I am surprised by the viewpoint in this thread that poor grip or user error is a very likely cause for a semi-auto to double. User error is certainly a possible cause, but I have seen more guns double due to mechanical problems than user error. I would say that most, but not all, of the mechanical issues were due to poor gunsmithing.

Regardless of the cause, I consider unintended doubles to be a serious safety issue. There is no particular reason to think the second shot will hit the backstop, it could happen at a point of the recoil where the gun is pointed much too high.

Also, if a gun doubles due to a mechanical issue, there may be a possibility that it will go full auto. And if that happens, there is no knowing where the shots will go.

If a gun is doubling, it needs to be examined until a cause is determined. If the cause is a training issue, then it needs to be addressed promptly. In some ways, the trigger is the primary safety mechanism in a firearm, and if it is not working properly, then it needs to be addressed.
 
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