UN Forces keep peace in US? Hmmm?

BTW - I'm not commenting (in this particular post) on black helicopter stuff.

When they (UN) say "human rights" they mean human rights like many (like Dems, etc) socialist human rights, you know, right to someone else's money, right to medical care, air traveller's bill or rights, right to be free from fear of gun violence, you know, rights.


Battler.
 
I must elaborate before beginning that I'm not posting this in direct support of a viewpoint that the UN will be coming door to door taking guns, nor the opposite; but that nything is possible. I wish to give my take on the way some of these things work (including UN occupations) - largely as apply/have applied to other countries.

Back in caveman days, someone hurts you the only justice possible is that you hurt them back. Under a system of law, judgement and punishment are dispensed by (hopefully) objective law - govt., courts, whatever.

There are layers to this, that run from individual and local through states to federal law/judgement, i.e. the Supreme Court has the highest say in a case. Laws/rule/the way things are done work through a similar heirarchy - federal govt. supercedes state (within some limitations set forth in the constitution).

There are some planning that the United Nations be the next level, a layer from which nations obtain the legitimacy of their laws, and that has final say over those laws. This is not black helicopter talk, and within itself is not inherently good nor evil. It is also not inherently different to say the distributed states of the US joining together and negotiating federation. A federation of nations, with them collectively ruled within some constitutionally set out constraints.

The UN is a little different, there are many that see a united Earth as a means to end large scale war - it was tried after WW1 AND WW2. War itself can be a good or bad thing - I am sure that if everyone (including England) surrendured day 1 to Hitler that less people would have died total due to absence of war (other than those who he wanted to kill wholesale who he pretty much killed anyway). So war is not always bad, England etc. decided that they would rather have a lot of deat soldeirs than have Hitler run their lives.

Separate nations could be seen as operating in the same sort of anarchy as cavemen in a dispute. Two nations can go to war and the rest may or may not ignore them - and the stronger wins and life goes on. The UN will act as sort of the equivalent of the courts/police - with two sides in dispute (whether or not one is wrong), they will issue a ruling and (even though these things are less black and white than true crimes) shift things around to where they get a good guy and a bad guy, and attack the bad guy. The important thing here is that the "good guy" involved does not fight the bad guy; but someone else does the fighting, e.g. what we currently see as "multinational security forces" or peacekeepers. Okay, logistically so far only the US can really make a real contribution to something like this (currently only a superpower can realisticially deploy troops any appreciable distance from home - and nearby nations are usually too close to the problem to maintain the look of being unbiased).

So that's how it is to work, all conflict is to appear to be solved by someone unbiased.

Although it's only beginning now, all governments to some degree or other already gain their legitimacy through the acknowledgement of other countries, and part of this happens to be through the industrialized countries that make up the UN. There are some who would do things that the UN/these countries would despise, these are "rogue nations". Rogue nations aside, the UN analyzes rebellions etc. The UN can't be everywhere - its actions are currently dictated by that which its supporters are capable of. However, for the most part, in a "non-rogue" nation, the UN operates ultimately with the permission of the government, e.g. East Timor, where the nation does not wish to alienate all other nations.

This sort of arrengement DOES cut back on fighting - say some Rebels are fighting the local dictator, they cannot fight the UN troops with the same hatred that they can fight the dictator's troops - so it has a calming effect.


As for troops going door to door disarming people, they do train to do this and it does happen. Am I Mr. Black Helicopter in saying this, or not? A bit of both - this does happen in other countries, the coalition troops are disarming civilians in Kosovo without any mention of "right to bear arms" - if they are fighting for the people of Kosovo's rights, it's fairly clear that being armed isn't one of them. The place happens to be a pit of crime against Albanian, Gypsy and Serb alike, a civilian living here has 100x the "need" for arms that any of us have.

Now, taking an anti-black helicopter stance, yes you're seeing troops train to disarm civilians - but they are training for something a little more immediate than implementing gun control in the US - that will be handled incrementally. They are training for current missions overseas where disarmament is part of their mandate. I will assert that current doorkicking/weapon search training has absolutely NOTHING to do with disarming US citizens.


As to people believing that UN troops will be stationed/doing stuff in the US. This begs the question - what are UN troops? All non-rogue-nation troops, including US soldiers, are potentially UN troops, they'll don the blue helmet when joining with allies to fight whoever.

Is the concern with foreign origin troops stationed in the US? Here I'll be pro and anti black helicopter. There are US troops in bases in many European (and other) countries and life goes on. Would the reverse (foreign troops) in the US be so bad in and of itself? This would depend on your point of view, would you see it the way an Italian in Rome sees the US base (i.e. driving by it every day not even noticing the foreign base, and conspicuously NOT being thrown in a barb wire concentration camp as a result)?, or see it inherently as the seventh sign of the apocalypse?

I just wanted to throw in my .02c, I saw some hard positions here of people arguing two extremes, one that something WILL happen and will suck (UN troops in US disarming people), and the other that it's too impossible to be rational and is such an outrage that anyone who suggests the possibility is a paranoid.

The way things go may be a lot more gray, and will really depend on how you perceive them.

For example: "Occupying conquerer" or "noble peacekeepers"? It's really a matter of who you are in the arrangement and how the news sells it.


Battler.
 
Let me jump in again. My topic (at the top) showed the term "human rights" in the Mission Statement section of House Bill 4453.

Since we are (have been) searching for something to hang our hat on, I thought that maybe "human rights" could be that something in defending the assault on 2nd Amend. The 2nd is believed by many to be the teeth in the security of the BOR. And the 2nd is believed by many to emanate from the time immemorial right to one's own safety and defense.

So - once again - could this be a key phrase in any campaign to shore up and defend the 2nd???

While I think the second question had some merit, for I believe the world would get nervous about any US internal problem, I can see that it has taken away from the question above. Offering a Mea Culpa here.

AndyB
 
Im with you Dixon on opposing the 'requirement' of carry PERMITS, that requirement to exercise our rights is not in the constitution but actually amounts to
a restriction.
Hasnt anyone here been asked to show their permit when carrying in public to an officer.
I have.This in most ways it seems amounts to us only legally able to carry a gun in public with a permit what percentage of the population is that.
You go in public carrying loaded without lets say the UN is marching throught the neighborhood not searching just marching.
You become a criminal a lawbreaker if you carry your loaded firearm in public without a permit.Then you are arrested as a criminal and the LOCAL police that do so are simply
'doing their jobs'.
Hmmm their duty seems to cover so many things these days except where the constition is involved.
And battler is far from off when he sais are troops have been trained to do just this, am I the only one that saw the newspaper article in a US paper showing our american troops kicking at a door to search for weapons by 'rebels/terrorists'.
I will glance around for the article.
As far as the millitary presence I saw an interesting article on that and will post it soon.
 
source:washington times
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3935f2fd4e72.htm

Rep. Jim McGovern was horrified by the violence he witnessed in East Timor last year and thinks the United Nations needs an armed force to prevent anything like it from happening again.

"A lot of lives could have been saved" if the international body had troops at its disposal, the Massachusetts Democrat said.

Mr. McGovern, therefore, has introduced a resolution in the House of Representatives calling for a 6,000-man international military force that could step into dangerous situations and keep the peace at a moment's notice.

He dismisses any suggestion that this is the first step toward creating an international army. Congress last year passed a law saying that the United States would not pay its dues to the United Nations if it attempts to build a permanent military force.

"I know there are some people who are suspicious, paranoid, about the U.N.," Mr. McGovern said. "I think they have seen too many Oliver Stone movies; they think everything is a conspiracy."

But the leading congressional opponent of expanding U.N. power, Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Jesse Helms, seems unlikely to agree to Mr. McGovern's resolution.

"It's a slippery slope," said Marc Thiessen, spokesman for the North Carolina Republican. "Next, [the United Nations] will be saying they don't want to collect contributions from member nations, they want the power to tax. This isn't fantasy: It was suggested by the last secretary general."

Whether it is called an "army," a "police force," or a "rapid deployment force," Mr. Helms opposes putting armed troops under permanent U.N. control, he said.

"There are basic trappings of sovereignty: the power to exact justice, the power to tax, the power to call up a military," Mr. Thiessen said. "These are powers the United Nations should never possess."

Some members of the House agree that any armed U.N. contingent smacks uncomfortably of an international army.

"It's only a matter of definition whether something is a military force or police force," said Rep. Roscoe G. Bartlett, Maryland Republican and member of the House Armed Services Committee.

U.N. officials have long suggested they need more power to carry out their peacekeeping missions. The recent fiasco in Sierra Leone, where rebels captured 500 U.N. peacekeepers, shook the organization.

"We have to rethink how we equip troops and prepare them for these operations," Secretary General Kofi Annan told the London Independent last week. "In that way, they will be able to depend on themselves and do what they have to do."

While Mr. Annan has not openly called for a permanent military force, "he thinks it's a really good idea," according to Rep. Constance A. Morella, Maryland Republican and a co-sponsor of the House resolution, who recently had lunch with Mr. Annan. "He feels some money [spent in advance] saves lives."

Two years ago, Mr. Annan attempted to organize a "rapid deployment headquarters" that could coordinate peacekeeping troops from around the world. Congress reacted sharply after finding that the White House had given $200,000 to the effort, a discovery that prompted Mr. Helms' legislation tying the issue to U.S. dues.

Critics of the United Nations, including Mr. Helms, say the organization has drifted away from its original peacekeeping missions. Where its duties were once confined to monitoring existing peace agreements, the United Nations has increasingly injected itself into hot spots where the peace is unstable — such as Sierra Leone — or where there are no coherent organizations to negotiate peace — such as East Timor, where gangs only loosely controlled by Indonesia, killed as many as 10,000 persons.

Giving the United Nations some armed forces could lead to even more dangerous assignments that could draw the United States or other powers into dangerous regional wars, Mr. Thiessen said. The United Nations had to rely, for example, on heavily armed British soldiers to rescue its failed mission in Sierra Leone.

"Peacekeeping is a mess," Mr. Thiessen said. "The solution is not to create a permanent U.N. military force to get involved," but to rely on local and regional organizations such as NATO.

Mr. McGovern and his supporters insist a U.N. force is needed to fill a hole where regional organizations such as NATO cannot or will not step in. Africa has proven particularly troublesome for the United Nations since there are no strong regional organizations or alliances to keep order.

"This force will allow the Security Council, subject to a U.S. veto, to deploy well-trained and -equipped peacekeepers within 15 days of a resolution, bringing immediate relief and protection to civilian populations emerging from violent conflict," Mr. McGovern wrote last month in a letter seeking co-sponsors for his bill.

As envisioned by Mr. McGovern, the "United Nations Rapid Deployment Police and Security Force" would stay on the ground for only a few months while U.N. leaders scour the globe for troops for a more traditional peacekeeping force.

Because of the long time it now takes to build a peacekeeping team from scratch, he said, the United Nations has found it difficult to respond to violence in places such as Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Kosovo and Congo. Often order is restored only after thousands die.

"Once we've decided to do something, it takes a while to do something," Mr. McGovern says of the current system.>>>>

Working to get the US out of the UN The John Birch SOciety www.jbs.org Be a part of the solution or be a part of the subjects that allow it to become a real problem.

Patriot.45



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"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
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