(UK) Gang fires shots in court to free prisoners

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Mike, you can defend your nation if you like, I don't blame you. But you can't defend the anti-freedom actions of your government any more than I can defend those of mine.
That your only response to this is
1)You do it too! (How mature.)
and
2)The people support it! (They also supported slavery)

is very telling as to the weakness of your position.
 
Those who did once own a cartridge handgun just shoots blackpowder revolvers now anyway, and they are quite happy with that.

So GOOD to see that you are speaking for the feelings of ALL your countrymen. What official position do you occupy? PM? No, that's still Tony "the fascist" Blair, isn't it...? BTW, when do you turn in the last of your modern firearms and go back to muskets?

And Mike, I just heard on the "tele" about how there are over ONE MILLION surveillance cameras in Britain, with more being added every day. And how the Ministry of Something-or-Other is now going to "listen in" on all e-mails and electronic transactions as well. You people must LOVE living in a petri dish and being treated as a SOCIETY of criminals-in-waiting.

Geez...


[This message has been edited by Dennis Olson (edited August 06, 2000).]
 
No, I cannot "simply" accept the "fact" that the peoples of the British Isles "hate guns", for it is indeed the fact of history that the
English Parliment conceeded the right to bare arms and all the other rights that Americans hold dear in their own Constitution long before the existence of the U.S.A. What actually happened was that the traditional and natural rights of the peoples of the British Isles were brutally supressed in the restoration of a monarchy with autocratic pretensions. It has been a long and painsful struggle to regain those lost rights and the current English Government deserves nothing but our disdain in its attempt to set the clock back once again with autocratic pretensions thinly vailed in the most purile and false socialist rhetoric. As with Marx, I am only interested with those measures that give common men and women control of their own lives, not those that bind them hand and foot to an ever changeing parade of new masters, and I see that Toney Blair is not about creating that kind of socialism.
I think the truth is that the peoples of the U.K. must fear their government, with good reason, more than Americans, with some hope, must fear theirs and I intend to see that it remains that way.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The Militias, Timothy McVeigh, Ruby Ridge, the armed enclave at Waco, the White Supremisists camp at Redneckville, Ohio or wherever it is, your city riots, the ranchers in Arizona who are organising armed hunts to capture Mexicans crossing the border [/quote]

Goodness, yes. Although, to be quite honest, none of the above have a patch on the Irish Republican Army. I never could tell y'alls homegrown terrs without a scorecard. Sinn Fein, Provos, and what was that little bunch who were killing people to force the IRA to stop killing people? UVF, or something like that.

Ol' Timmy got one building. I understand that y'all have got some serial bombers that make Ted Kazcinski look like an amateur.

By-the-by, on a personal note, did Special Branch ever find the critter(s) who got Lord Mountbatten?

Ruby Ridge and Waco were terrible. Nasty little pieces of work inflicted by gov't forces on citizens. Speaking of which, are the British SAS and others still running live-fire ops against Crown subjects in Northern Ireland for practice?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Those who did once own a cartridge handgun just shoots blackpowder revolvers now anyway, and they are quite happy with that.[/quote]

I'll bet you a plate of biscuits, and the tea to go with them, that blackpowder revolvers will be unlawful within three years.

Then what will y'all be "quite happy" with?

LawDog
 
Originally posted by Mike H:
"So what are you saying, if they hadn't banned handguns this wouldn't have happened, or are you suggesting that we give all our cops guns so they can waddle around shooting people reaching for their wallets (a la Amadue Diallo) like US cops do on an all too frequent basis. We like to be pulled over for speeding without being Weavered."

Your police are not as unarmed as you think. More and more police are being armed in jolly old England. And even more have firearms in the cars. My understanding is they have MP5s in thier vehicles also. If I was you, considering the gun violence England is expierencing and the lack of citizens with guns, I would want more of the cops over their carrying guns and hope one of them is around when some idiot decides to start shooting. I don't think your country is doing such a bang up job with "no" guns.
Click to expand...
 
The reference to black powder guns in the UK
reminded me of a post from there that said the only reason they were going to black powder guns was that it was the only way to shoot a handgun.

While this is dated, check out this interesting interpretation of a 'handgun'- a snippet from a 1997 article. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=003248241434058&rtmo=wAQlf5nb&atmo=hhhhhhhe&pg=/et/97/10/3/ngun03.html


"Yachtsmen scuppered as start guns are seized

POLICE acting on Home Office advice, have told yacht clubs to surrender their handguns under the ban that took effect on Tuesday.

The firearms are cannon used to signal the start of yacht races by firing a powder-only cartridge, giving out a loud bang and a puff of black smoke.

Despite an exemption in the firearms legislation for "signalling apparatus", Essex police advised clubs to hand them in or risk imprisonment for illegal possession of a handgun. Dyfed Powys in Wales is also seeking a ruling from the Home Office before deciding whether to round up the starting cannon.

The move has astonished the yachting community, resulting in complaints to the Home Office. It is now considering whether they should be returned.

Although the cannon - normally mounted on wooden trunnions - weigh around 40lb, they have short barrels and strictly fall within the definition of a large-calibre weapon outlawed after the Dunblane massacre. Most police forces relied upon the exemption for signalling apparatus - such as athletics starting guns and Very pistols - and chose not to bother their yacht clubs. "
The article ended on a typical bureaucratic note: "He understood from the Home Office that the police would be told they can hand back the cannon. But a spokesman for Essex police said they were still awaiting a ruling. 'It is now going to be discussed by ministers. If they decide they are exempt we will be returning the cannon to the yacht clubs'."
 
Did I read Mike H's profile wrong, or is he in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania?

As we Southerner's are fond of saying, "If it's that great where you're from, Delta is ready when you are."

I wouldn't slam England, but they chose to be disarmed - they didn't object, they didn't fuss too much, they complied when the laws were handed down. Now, the British have no choice but to depend on their overworked and understaffed police force to keep the vermin at bay. Meanwhile, a whole country full of honest people just became an easier, legally defenseless target. Crooks can get machine guns illegally, but the British Olympic Pistol Team has to practice in another country - it doesn't take a genius to see that banning handguns only affects those who care to obey the law, or are too afraid to disobey. I don't think these thugs are afraid of much, do you?

I hate it for the British (and the Aussies, and the Canadians), they deserve a chance to defend themselves just like everyone else.
But better them than us.
 
I thought everyone had now picked up on the fact that I posed as a US citizen to sidestep the anti-British hatred that riddles this forum, just so I could pursue my desire to learn about the shooting arts, I'm afraid that facade fell down long ago, I tolerated the idiots for just as long as I could, but eventually they got to me. By the way, the IRA are not anarchists, they are pursuing a political agenda and have an entirely legitimate political wing who now form part of the government in N.Ireland, to class them with the crazy and armed cultists that seem to infest modern America is a poor comparison to say the least. My wife is from Pa but we only visit, living there is never considered, her own view is that Britain is more compassionate towards its own people, suffice to say she loves it here. As I said I love to shoot and Pa allows me that freedom, something I chose not do to in Britain even when it was legal, to be a lover of firearms in Britain is to be classed as a psycho, pure and simple. The one guy who I worked with that did shoot was dismissed for bringing a Dragunov sniper rifle into work one day, for no apparent reason.

I'll close by adding that my wife phoned her mother in Connellsville over the weekend. Seems one of her old acquaintances who is an ex-marine caught his wife with another man and killed him with his handgun, he is now on a murder charge, if you doubt my honesty, a not entirely unreasonable standpoint since I've lied about my nationality here for some time, the local Connellsville, Pa newspapers must be carrying the story. We get stories from the 'ol country like this one on a fairly regular basis, all from within a 10 mile radius of where the wife hails from, she also lost 4 school friends or relatives to firearm accidents or suicide by rifle when she was at high school. She's been here for 3 years now and I believe our county has yet to suffer a fatality in that time. All this may make me sound like an anti, indeed you may yet turn me into one if I continue to read the threads in General, but the truth is that I'm intending to pick up a Glock 19 (for her) and a Beretta 92 INOX (for me) when we return to Pa in about 6 weeks time, we buy them and then sell them on at the end of our stay, either that or borrow friends weapons. You see when the British want to frequent prostitutes and smoke cannabis legally, they go to Amsterdam for the weekend, when our perverts want child sex they go on safari to Thailand, when I want to buy a handgun I go on vacation to America, who knows, maybe there's a message there, I'll let you be the judge.

Suffice to say that I never criticised America for its many and obvious ills during my time as a "lurker", but when you started in on Britain for not being more like you in our attitudes, your "hey we've got it all figured out, they are all soooo dumb" attitude just flipped my bull**** switch, you Americans are proud of your country, why not grow up a little and lay off mine.

Mike H
 
Why don't you try growing up a little Mike? That would involve realizing the shortcomings of your country just as I realize the shortcomings of mine. You don't sound quite mature enough for that at the moment though.
 
Mike, I for one would like you to explain why your people allow themselves to be surveilled like criminals. You know the MILLION cameras (more every day), and the reading of EVERY e-mail and e-transaction in your country.

Why do you like to live like that so much? Are you (as a PEOPLE) so afraid of your own mental instabilities that you welcome big brother like that? Inquiring minds want to know.

BTW, the amount of money that you spend on your plane tickets, I could buy several nice guns. Maybe you should just go to Thailand instead....
 
Mike is right. Quite often people let their emotions go on to full rage when the question of foriegn gun outrages shows up on this board. I think it is because the foriegner is safely far away and not at all understood and thus a safe rant.
Its O.K. with me to rant on foriegn governments, foriegn ant's and foriegn criminals, but we should never make the mistake of taking it out on a whole people. That's never justified and always moves one's righteous anger over to the side of unrighteousness. When one is embroiled in casues over principle, one has to watch out for that.
 
The IRA is okay, they're political, but America is just infested with crazy cultists? People who want to change the US gov't or practice their religion are crazy, but the IRA's okay. I get it...NOT!

Funny, I don't see anybody here slamming the Aussies, or other nationalities, I wonder why it's just the British? Then your lump together going out of country to molest children, have sex with prostitutes, do drugs, and buy a gun, but you're not an anti???

BTW, I never said America has it all figured out. But I don't think England does either. Or even Switzerland. I just find the idea of "person A broke the law, so B-Z will just have to give up their rights" to be morally indefensible. Let's face it - right now, Britain represents everything most of us fear the U.S. becoming - a totalitarian Big Brother. I'd a lot rather worrier about gang-bangers than soldiers or national police.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Funny, I don't see anybody here slamming the Aussies, or other nationalities[/quote]

You wanna talk about Sweden? ;)

------------------
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
other than the legality of the incident, I thought it was very well executed. Sort of like a special op sort of run. Go in, flashy, big guns, quick, in, out, get away, switch cars while no one's looking... Should make a good book.

and what is all this nationality bickering going on, we all have our share of thieves, liars and murders... as well as idiots...

peace...
keith
 
I hadn't really intended to swim against the tide any more on this one, but its always heartening to see that there are some, nay, many here who display an ability to see grey and not just black, white and red. As for the guy who suggested that we holiday in Thailand from now on, that is certainly the kind of comment I'm more used to, and indeed expect, these days.

As for our airfare tickets costing a parcel, well, the wife is a business travel consultant and she gets ridiculous discounts on our flights. You may be interested to know that her evening story over dinner tonight, concerned a business exec. who she had arranged the flight and hotel for in New York, I believe he's in the Fitzpatrick (spelling ?) in upper Manhattan. He phoned her on arrival to say that a guy was shot dead in front of him right outside the hotel as he arrived, once again I expect this can be verified, his comment was simply "ahh well, that's America for you", a blinkered comment admittedly, but you get the idea. She is no longer offended by such remarks in spite of being both a shooter and an American herself, because she believes in RKBA, indeed just as I do, but has the sense to recognise that there has to be a downside, she doesn't deny it, she simply accepts it, a view that I'm immensely proud of her for having. Like I keep trying to say, you people like the system the way it is in America, and hey, that's just fine by me, similarly most British people like the relative absense of firearms in our culture. What annoys me is when one group attempts to enforce its views on another, something the Snowdrop Alliance in Britain is certainly guilty of in respect of their activities in America.

Who knows, maybe I'll stick around in TFL a while longer, if only to provide a foil for the more extreme, or even scary contributors here, or then again maybe I'll just head for Thailand ............

Thankyou to those of you who have e-mailed me privately.

Mike H
 
Poor fools in England can't escape substituting guns for crime.

Which is more dangerous, walking around armed-to-the-ti**s North-West Austin or London's Brixton? It's not that guns prevent the crime so much as they're not the factor in crime that you're looking for.

I'll say this - private ownership of guns did NOTHING in England to thwart crime - you'd get nailed to a cross for defending yourself, guns had to be locked up, and so few people had any that were worth a cra* anyway (autoloaders, handguns) that it was really a nonissue in crime prevention.

BTW - Mike H. Did you say you were going to buy a gun in the USA? I don't know if you're still a US citizen or what; but unless you're a US permanent resident (or US citizen who's not surrendured his US citizenship) and have been a resident of the state in which you wish to purchase you are violating a federal firearms law. Likewise, either you or someone else purchasing a firearm for someone else is also a federal felony.

Just keep it honest, we have a lot of strict gun laws in America.


Battler.



[This message has been edited by Battler (edited August 08, 2000).]
 
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