UK Crime Figures Down - Are You Listening Jeff ?

M

Mike H

New member
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/001017/27/amf6h.html

Perhaps now I can read something new in the Col.'s Guns & Ammo column.

Some may see this as an "anti" posting, but I believe that by eliminating the plainly stupid parts of the pro-gun message, such as saying that the UK has been swamped by crime, because a ridiculously small number of target pistols were withdrawn from private ownership, strengthens the pro gun case not weakens it. I can only hope that this nails the coffin lid shut once and for all. The sharp rise in violent robbery amongst the under 18's is apparently due to the theft of one item almost exclusively, namely the mobile phone (cell phone), which is now seen as a must have fashion accessory amongst our teenagers.

Tuesday October 17, 12:09 PM

Crime 'less fashionable' as rates fall
By Justin Davenport, Crime Correspondent

Crime levels in Britain fell in almost every category last year reflecting a global trend which may be caused partly by it becoming "less fashionable", according to a Home Office study.

The authoritative British Crime Survey of nearly 20,000 households showed crime overall fell by 10 per cent last year, continuing a trend which began in 1995.

The few exceptions to the downward trend, however, were crimes of violence with robbery up 14 per cent, and theft from the person, which saw a four per cent rise. Last year there were 3.24 million violent crimes.

The rise in robbery is blamed on a significant increase in the number of 16-year-old victims of street attacks, reflecting the major rises in muggings reported by the Metropolitan Police.

Today's figures also point to a 29 per cent rise in violent incidents involving so called stranger attacks.

The main findings were that since 1997, burglary fell by 21 per cent, vehicle crime by 15 per cent and common assault by three per cent.


Mike H
 
I've been wincing myself when reading these reports of crime going up after these gun bans.

The gun laws were implemented incrementally, like you said all they had was target 22s. In England OR Australia if you pointed a gun at a burglar you were in a LOT more trouble than he is, legality-wise. Not considering the rarity of demonized guns anyway.

A lot of how we counter gun control is fundamentally flawed. By saying "this won't cut crime" you are basically saying "it is right for you to steal my guns if it stops crime".

What if it does? Does that morally justify it?

I GUARANTEE I can cut crime if I cut off everyone's hands. Does that mean I should?


Battler.
 
Guns don't prevent crime, fashionability prevents crime. Say, they wouldn't have changed the way crime statistics are compiled, would they?

[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited October 17, 2000).]
 
Battler,

I think we agree. I would just add however that there were a full range of handgun calibers in private ownership before the ban and not just .22's, but they were indeed all classed as target pieces, because, as you rightly say, using one to defend yourself with was illegal regardless of circumstance (well almost) since the gun had to be locked in a safe with no ammo. I know that you're from Oz and I also correspond with a Finnish shooter who can't understand why people still try and correlate UK crime figures with the handgun ban either in a positive OR negative sense. Some of the more vociforous US gun writers such as Jeff Cooper do still however insist on trying to draw some meaning from figures that simply cannot support their conclusions.

The ban was unjust and plain wrong, but not for these reasons.

Ledbetter,

You are also correct, they have changed the way crimes are reported and statistics gathered, that's one of the reasons that it's a nonsenese to try and draw any concrete conclusions from them. To give one example - assaults on staff by patients of psychiatric units were previously not regarded as "crimes", but they now are, simply because the officer can report the "crime" as having resulted in a "detection" since the perp didn't have far to run. Such reports may increase the violent crime figures, but they also improve the detection rates, a political plus. As we have now had one report that says crime is up and one that says crime is down, the truth is probably that crime levels
are roughly what they have been for the last 10 years.

Regards,

Mike H

[This message has been edited by Mike H (edited October 17, 2000).]
 
Interesting. Were shotguns and rifles under the same restrictions they are now as well?

Either way, if the stats are true, I AM glad for the British. But it doesn't change my opinion of their gun laws. They didn't have to increase crime for me to decide they're pretty stupid.
 
Mike,

Can you please be more specific about what you mean. Your excerpt states that all crimes except violent crime went down?

I'm not sure I understand what you think this indicates.

Noel
 
There have been no changes (yet) to the shotgun and rifle laws, but the police are trying hard, very hard.

My basic point is to trash the notion that the withdrawal of handguns, of which there were almost none anyway, from the UK populace has in any way affected the crime figures, either upwards or downwards. Social trends are what is at work here, those and the inadequacies of our judicial and law enforcement system. To illustrate the point, I highlight the rise in violent drink related assaults (obvious cause - non gun related), the increase in street robbery (mobile phones from teenagers - non gun related) versus the large REDUCTION in house burglary which is the main area that most people point to in respect of the handgun ban, since the miniscule number that actually had a handgun would have it in the house. Since burglaries are now down, way down, since the ban it is plainly incorrect to assert (as Jeff Cooper so frequently does) that the ban has caused an INCREASE in house burglaries presumably because the burglars were previously afraid of getting ventilated. And that's my point, it just ain't so.

Regards,

Mike H
 
This is something I recieved from a gentleman in England.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Interesting articles in today's papers (The Times and Daily Mail). It on UK
Crime Figures.

Seems that the Government has always had 2 sets of crime figures. One has
been compiled by all the Police Forces and the other by Government appointed
Researchers. The later actually go out and interview the population
(statistical analysis) on their actual experience of crime. Implication is
that over last decades the Police figures have "drifted" away (lower) then
that of the actual.

Today's report shows that the Police recorded figures are now only 1/3rd of
that experienced by the population. Police approx 5million crimes, research
shows approx 15 million.

Seems the difference is caused by police having to achieve "targets" in
reduction of crime, and capture rates etc. Hint is that the individual
forces treat the recording of crimes to match their targets. One force
consolidates all an offenders crimes to be only ONE figure, other forces
"ignore" "lesser" crimes, and most have reclassified crimes to a "lower"
status.

Also the public do not bother to register with the police crimes that are
against the person. They do register those required to obtain insurance
claims (theft etc) but see as a waste of time telling the police about
assaults!! This is a reflection on the perception of "will never catch
them" and also a growing trend of the intimidation of witness in Court
cases.

Taken on either level I do not know how the UK figures compare to the US (in
say per 100,000 of population). My guess is that generally the Brits are
less into SERIOUS issues (killings rapes etc) but maybe more into robbery?
The police declared / target response time, to an emergency telephone call,
is 20 minutes in out-of-town areas !! Villain LONG GONE !!

Think the mind-set of Brits is one of "leave it to the Government" to look
after us, but say the French readily take up barricades and street protests
against all manner of issues. But then the French have had their
Revolution, the Brits have never had one (though recently nearly one over
the price of petrol (USD6 per gallon in UK))

Best wishes

Tom

PS Strange how the police can consolidate per year 5 million crime
statistics, but can not consolidate the 1,400,000 guns (which they already
hold the information on) into a National database to prove, or otherwise,
the claims of the target shooters that it is NOT their guns that turn up in
crime[/quote]

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 
None of this really matters, statistics, polls, interviews, detection rates... It is all BS bologne. The Brits have taken a lot of flak for growing crime rates since their gun bans. So we now have a report that states it is not true, released by the gov. Please tell me that noone here is so gullible as to believe ANY statistics, be they from the gov. , NRA. There are also reports of changed rule for crime reporting by the gov. ala if one perp does 3 crimes it is still one crime. Dont know what is true or not, never will unless you live there and are unfortunate enough to get mugged, raped, ... What burns me up about the stupid Brits is their willingness to consider people guilty rather than innocent (this is what control laws do in effect) and their desire to get the rest of the world to do the same. I work with a lot of Brits, all of them have the same mentality: You Mmericans should do things just like we do. Things are so nice and rosy in England and if you'd be just like us things would be so much better here. My question to them usually is why are you here then and not in the land of nice nice. Have yet to get an answer aside from the evil look of "i'm filing harassment charges".

------------------
"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
 
I used to work doing Charts & Graphs for the Government

They would provide the data and my job was to present it in the way they wanted it to read.

i can make the data look smooth and uniform or like a seismic event

When the government hauls out the numbers, the good citizen should find a shovel

dZ
 
Taz,

Are you saying that a Brit working and paying tax in the US should never have the right to complain about any aspect of the system ? I would beg to differ, Brits living in America should be able to criticise your system just as much as Americans living here criticise ours, and believe me they do. I've yet to meet an American (and I'm married to one) living in the UK who doesn't go endlessly on about the lousy weather, high prices, lack of living space, inability to get a good steak etc etc. But they are right, they have a point, I only take issue with people when what they are saying is garbage and it is demonstrably so, their nationality is of no consequence to me only what they are saying. If anything, I find it more annoying when people criticise countries that they have never even visited let alone lived in, but just choose to believe everything they read in the papers.

It's funny how when the high British crime statistics were reported here, the replies were on the lines of - "serves them right" and "duh" even though they were official figures. Now I report a set of official stats. that show a reduction in crime and suddenly it's a government cover up, funny that isn't it.

Mike H
 
I've never understood why anyone would feel the need to compare the US to the UK and Japan or any other country. Each country has a different historical, cultural and political tradition that all relate to gun ownership. Even if complete bans in other countries led to 0 violence I could care less. RKBA rights are non-negotiable and they aren't based on a causal relation to crime.

------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
 
Tecolote,

I agree that comparisons should not be made, but I don't think anyone was. As for crime stats. not being a causal factor in promoting RKBA, I would say the cause needs all the help it can get, just saying "hey, it's in the Constitution", isn't going to get you very far when Gore gets elected, and I'm afraid he will if only because George W. comes across as completely vacuous.

Mike H
 
Mike H,

I don't think we should write off Bush. If we do then we've only ourselves to blame. The race is a dead tie, and every vote counts.

The problem with looking at crime statistics from other countries, and then trying to draw parallels is that it's a faulty thing to undertake outside of a complete study of all relevant factors. Best book I ever read on the matter is David Kopel's The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy : Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies.
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited October 19, 2000).]
 
Tecolote,

Believe me, when the votes are being counted, I'll bee rooting for Bush along with the rest of you. After all, where the hell else am I going to shoot ;)

Mike H
 
Mike H.

No, I dont think that American citizens should be barred from criticizing the system. For that matter anyone has the right to criticize any system they choose to. What I was trying to get across was that I get annoyed by people who have recently volunteered to come here and then repeatedly try to convinve me that their country of origin is a better place to live and we should change our system to mimic theirs, so that they could be more comfortable. Thay is what annoys me? If I were a Brit living in England and some Yank deciding to move there tries to convince me that his country is better than mine and I should change, I would be just as annoyed.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike H:


I've yet to meet an American (and I'm married to one) living in the UK who doesn't go endlessly on about the lousy weather, high prices, lack of living space, inability to get a good steak etc etc.

[/quote]

Not all true. I ate a delicious steak in London when I was there.... ;)

Kurt
 
Good point about the crime rates not being effected either way by the gun laws. That, perhaps, should be the main point- the laws didn't decrease crime.

I must disagree with those who think we should not attempt to defend or justify RKBA. If we keep our mouth shut, we will end up just like them.
 
6 cops + 6 pistols = 1 crime wave

Not when I did math.

Rather :

100 drug dealers + 100 guns = 6 nervous cops

QED

Mike H
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top