georgiacatweazle
New member
Thanks Unclenick. Not sure how the Bayou bullets are cast. think they are hard cast. also running a ruger super redhawk which should be able to take extra pressure.
uhm, 8.4gr of bullseye under a 240 in 44 mag? is that an oops ?
- Thread starter georgiacatweazle
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It's always hard to follow Unclenick; as he generally covers all the bases. So I'll be the guy to take one for the team 
.
My eyebrows raised when I saw the OP. Yeah, get your work area more organized from the move, and then get back to loading. Here's what I do: My load bench is in the garage. All my components, computer, load data, etc. are in a spare bedroom upstairs. When it comes time to load. I double check by using my chronograph data and/or previous load data. On a sticky note, I write down the bullet, propellant, and charge weight. That sticky note comes downstairs out to the garage along with the propellant. I put up the sticky note and prominently display the powder on the load bench - so I can plainly see it the entire time I am loading.
It already seems like you've been lectured and you've taken in the constructive criticism well. So I'll stop at that. We all make mistakes. This past spring, I loaded my first squib after 32 years of loading.
I would be inclined to pull down the ill-loaded ammo. Nobody would fault you for just pulling them down and moving on.
Bullseye is high-energy non-forgiving stuff. I generally load with propellants on the faster side compared to most of my fellow handloaders here (if anyone follows my posts, they know this well). That said, putting Bullseye under a 240 with 44 Mag would make me a little nervy (I have such a loading with 44 Spl; but not Mag). The pressure curve will be steep.
I've used Bullseye a ton for decades. But I know its place; and I know it commands respect. It is not the propellant to play load work ups until pressure signs - especially with heavy bullets. It's for target ammo. You do work ups with Bullseye to find a target-level charge that shoots accurate and consistent in your gun - not to see how far you can take it. Hope that makes sense. I know this isn't what you did. I'm just showcasing the normal use, purpose, and workup procedure with Bullseye; as a compare-n-contrast to what you inadvertently did.
A: Apples n oranges. To compare weights or "load profile" of one propellant to another is extremely ill-advised. Just because it can be done with one propellant doesn't mean that it can translate over to another - no matter how similar they may be perceived to be.
B: Although Bullseye and TiteGroup both fall into the "fast" burn rate range family, that's where the similarities end. BE is on the fast end of the spectrum; while TG is the slowest of the "fast" powders I've ever worked with. If TG was any slower, I'd categorize it as an intermediate speed propellant. Heck, it's just a touch faster than intermediate classics such as Unique, HS-6, or AA#5. It's slow enough to where it's actually suitable for short-barrel type defense loadings. In most calibers, TG can be loaded to some surprisingly respectable velocities. TiteGroup is considerably slower than Bullseye.
So I'm in the "pull 'em" camp. Live and learn. Get your load area tidied up
Load safe.
.My eyebrows raised when I saw the OP. Yeah, get your work area more organized from the move, and then get back to loading. Here's what I do: My load bench is in the garage. All my components, computer, load data, etc. are in a spare bedroom upstairs. When it comes time to load. I double check by using my chronograph data and/or previous load data. On a sticky note, I write down the bullet, propellant, and charge weight. That sticky note comes downstairs out to the garage along with the propellant. I put up the sticky note and prominently display the powder on the load bench - so I can plainly see it the entire time I am loading.
It already seems like you've been lectured and you've taken in the constructive criticism well. So I'll stop at that. We all make mistakes. This past spring, I loaded my first squib after 32 years of loading.
I would be inclined to pull down the ill-loaded ammo. Nobody would fault you for just pulling them down and moving on.
Bullseye is high-energy non-forgiving stuff. I generally load with propellants on the faster side compared to most of my fellow handloaders here (if anyone follows my posts, they know this well). That said, putting Bullseye under a 240 with 44 Mag would make me a little nervy (I have such a loading with 44 Spl; but not Mag). The pressure curve will be steep.
I've used Bullseye a ton for decades. But I know its place; and I know it commands respect. It is not the propellant to play load work ups until pressure signs - especially with heavy bullets. It's for target ammo. You do work ups with Bullseye to find a target-level charge that shoots accurate and consistent in your gun - not to see how far you can take it. Hope that makes sense. I know this isn't what you did. I'm just showcasing the normal use, purpose, and workup procedure with Bullseye; as a compare-n-contrast to what you inadvertently did.
A: Apples n oranges. To compare weights or "load profile" of one propellant to another is extremely ill-advised. Just because it can be done with one propellant doesn't mean that it can translate over to another - no matter how similar they may be perceived to be.
B: Although Bullseye and TiteGroup both fall into the "fast" burn rate range family, that's where the similarities end. BE is on the fast end of the spectrum; while TG is the slowest of the "fast" powders I've ever worked with. If TG was any slower, I'd categorize it as an intermediate speed propellant. Heck, it's just a touch faster than intermediate classics such as Unique, HS-6, or AA#5. It's slow enough to where it's actually suitable for short-barrel type defense loadings. In most calibers, TG can be loaded to some surprisingly respectable velocities. TiteGroup is considerably slower than Bullseye.
So I'm in the "pull 'em" camp. Live and learn. Get your load area tidied up
Load safe.
georgiacatweazle
New member
Nick_C_S - yep I get ya. thanks for the input. reloading isn't for rushing. sometimes need to drop anchor and re-check everything, specially if you move house.
spacecoast
New member
Hodgdon's burn rate chart, while not quantitative in nature, shows Bullseye at #13 in burn rate and Titegroup at #14. Unique is at #31, AA#5 is at #41 and HS-6 is at #42. All of the loads I have reviewed spanning many calibers show similar min and max loads of Bullseye and Titegroup.
So I suspect they may be closer than you think.
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georgiacatweazle
New member
spaceghost - yep tightegroup goes up to 10gr max on a 240. going to A) wait for alliant to give me some feedback B) learn more about burn rates C) probably still break them down as I don't think i'd like to shoot max 44 mags 
Accurate Arm's burn rate chart tells a much different story. Burn rate charts vary. Accurate's chart much more closely resembles my experience with many powders across the board. And I just speak from my experience.
When I look at Hodgdon's chart it makes my face contort in all kinds of weird directions because it bears so little resemblance to my personal experience.
It's got Red Dot faster than Bullseye - not a chance.
It's got Green Dot faster than W231/HP-38 or AA#2 - there's no way.
It's got 800X faster than AA#5 - seriously?? 800X is like Blue Dot slow.
I could go on. . .
Yeah, they're passing round some good stuff over there at Hodgdon.
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georgiacatweazle
New member
Nick_C_S - I think I'll rate your wisdom higher than Hodgdon in this case.
Well, I certainly wouldn't be so bold as to go along with that. I'm sure there's lots of smart people over there at Hodgdon. I'm just speaking from personal experience and my perception. I'm sure they ran some sort of pressure chamber test or whatever; and the results they got are the results they got.
That said, simple burn rate charts that just list them from 1 through whatever don't sit well with me - even if they had them in the correct order. They leave a natural impression that the list is "linear," and they aren't. Powder #13 may be a lot faster than powder #14; but powder #15 may be only the slightest bit slower than powder #14. I just find the whole thing too rudimentary and over-simplified. And in the case of Hodgdon's, it just doesn't fall in line with my experience and so I disregarded it years ago. Just my opinion.
That's why I like about Accurate Arms' burn rate chart (http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf). Aside from the fact that it much more closely resembles my personal experience, it's also two dimensional. And powders that reside on the same row are so close in burn rate as to be considered basically the same. For instance, AA#2, Red Dot, and TiteGroup are all on the same row - and that's exactly my experience. They are too close to consider one faster or slower than the other. And they are a full three rows below (slower) Bullseye - which is also my experience.
Propellants are going to behave differently in some applications than others and nothing is an "all else being equal" situation. It's pointless to get in a discussion of which powder is faster or slower than the next. I just have my personal experience (32 years loading) from which to draw. I've done a lot of load work ups.
It doesn't really seem that anyone really addressed the simple point, and that is, why in God's name are you here asking whether it's going to destroy your gun or hurt you?
The correct answer, imo, is to just pull the things and start over. nothing is worth taking a risk like that. Instead of digging around to find load data that supports using mistaken loads that approach maximum, do the smartest thing and take down your 100 rounds.
There is plenty of argument to just use them, and maybe it would be safe, but the careful thing to do would be to take them down and start over.
The correct answer, imo, is to just pull the things and start over. nothing is worth taking a risk like that. Instead of digging around to find load data that supports using mistaken loads that approach maximum, do the smartest thing and take down your 100 rounds.
There is plenty of argument to just use them, and maybe it would be safe, but the careful thing to do would be to take them down and start over.
Gotta agree with briandg, if there's any doubt, pull 'em!
FWIW, Relative burn Rate Charts are not linear. Meaning powder number 13 man be faster than powder number 14, but how much faster? That listing only means that there was not a powder tested that fit between 13 and 14. Could be (but not probable) that number 13 will give good loads but 14 may be slower enough for incomplete or "dirty" burning, or number is 13 so much faster than 14 that comparisons could be dangerous. Burn rate charts just show which powders are faster burning than others, not how much faster!
OOPS! Missed Nicks post of burn rate charts.
FWIW, Relative burn Rate Charts are not linear. Meaning powder number 13 man be faster than powder number 14, but how much faster? That listing only means that there was not a powder tested that fit between 13 and 14. Could be (but not probable) that number 13 will give good loads but 14 may be slower enough for incomplete or "dirty" burning, or number is 13 so much faster than 14 that comparisons could be dangerous. Burn rate charts just show which powders are faster burning than others, not how much faster!
OOPS! Missed Nicks post of burn rate charts.
The thing about the system of burn rates is that there are still a lot of variable that can't be accounted for, such as friction, bore conditions, bullet hardness o size, and so on. Don't let four of them be far out of spec when loading.
A problem with powder is that it isn't like burning kerosene. Doing that in a lamp will give you a constant temperature and predictable heat output.
Powder is designed to start at a cool or slow burn, then take off like rocket fuel as the bullet leaves and makes room. Take that .44, put in a proper load of bullseye, and with every grain of powder added to that charge, the pressure figures will go vertically, and will end in such a fast, high pressure burn that it's almost certain to damage any handgun.
Damaging a gun isn't always about pressure, or powder speed, it can be caused by a lock of things.
A problem with powder is that it isn't like burning kerosene. Doing that in a lamp will give you a constant temperature and predictable heat output.
Powder is designed to start at a cool or slow burn, then take off like rocket fuel as the bullet leaves and makes room. Take that .44, put in a proper load of bullseye, and with every grain of powder added to that charge, the pressure figures will go vertically, and will end in such a fast, high pressure burn that it's almost certain to damage any handgun.
Damaging a gun isn't always about pressure, or powder speed, it can be caused by a lock of things.