UCLA Student Tased: Justifiable?

Heist

Moderator
http://helpychalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/ucla-student-repeatedly-tasered-for-not.html

Watch the video. There are a few bad words.

Tell me what you think. I think that the moderators of this site are enlightened enough to know that comments about the individual officers in the video, along with comments about overall policy, are not 'cop bashing'.


Mostafa Tabatabainejad was tazered by university police, after he failed to exit the university library quickly enough when he failed to produce the ID that is required of all students using the library after 11. He was tasered once when he didn't get out quickly enough, and then repeatedly after that for failing to stand up after being tazered the first time. Other students who asked the police for their names and badge numbers where threatened with tazering.

C'mon. I want to hear what you think about this.

I'm going to make the prediction that law enforcement will start pushing to make it a crime to record the actions of officers.
 
I think it was funny as hell. I love the part where the kid was screaming about the "patriot act." What a moron.


OTOH, the use of TASERs is way out of hand in my humble estimation.
 
Some parts were funny, but most of the time I felt like I was watching a train wreck. The kid is a class A moron (and drama student, maybe), and the cops need to deal with stuff like that without resorting to the taser. The whole thing was bizarre with so many people watching. I wouldn't have been shocked if the police had been flogged in the lobby by their superiors with the idiot student looking on in a reenactment of The Whipper. That may still happen, metaphorically.

This cell-phone-video era is great. Five years ago we'd be reading a couple of news articles with various skewed points of view, but now we can see and hear these incidents -- when someone has the presence of mind to record them.

Are tasers classified as "less-lethal" weapons (I thought they were, or used to be at least), or do most police consider it a non-lethal weapon now?
 
Question. Why didn't he get up when asked? Why did they have to tell him to "Stand Up" 18,000,000 times?

Eh, feces transpires. If I was a security guard at that college I'd probably be a little over zealous to pop some yuppies too...
 
Yeah...

I think most of us can agree the kid was a moron.

However, after reading a couple different news stories, including statements from both sides (the department and witnesses), as well as watching the video....well, it's hard to justify the actions of the officers.

Now, it does sound like the student was belligerent in the beginning. I'm actually not willing to strongly assert that their initial use of the taser was inappropriate. However, after that he should have been subdued, cuffed, and dragged out of there. Instead we have a kid on the ground, with cops over him telling him "get up or you'll be tased again." It's not a cattle prod, and I'm hoping that's not the way it's meant to be used by the officers it's issued to. And especially after he's being handcuffed and held by two officers, tasing him is basically just torture. There was no need to keep zapping him at that point...instead of using it to prod him to get up, they should simply have grabbed him and dragged him out. Especially because that's what they ended up doing anyway.

I think the use of the taser was much too casual in this situation, and it isn't the first such situation I've heard of. Because it only causes pain rather than permanent injury cops seem to have no reservations about using it in ways they'd never use a firearm, nightstick, or even a simple armtwisting.

I especially like at the end, when the cop tells the kid in his face asking for his badge number that if he doesn't "get over there, you'll get tased too." While holding the taser. This nonchalant threat of force against a nonviolent bystander is part of the reason I'm not entirely convinced that the initial use of the taser was warranted, either. It's really too bad nobody caught that on camera...I'd be very interested to see security camera footage of the entire incident.
 
Gee what did they do in the old days when you didn't get out of the library fast enough? Stand up! No? Well BANG then!

When does this get out of hand? Sick sticks? Should police have the right to knock you unconcious with the push of a button if you refuse to comply with something as idiotic as this?
 
Tyme, I liked your comments on this more when they were

(I know he turned out to be a student, but let's assume the cops didn't know for sure he was one.)

Trespassing? How? UCLA is a public university, and the library was open. I'd hardly consider an unaffiliated person to be trespassing in a library even if it was a private university. University libraries are the premier resource for technical journals and a variety of other materials (I don't know if UCLA is a government document repository, but most (all?) such libraries are at universities.)

Reading it again, he was in a computer lab in the library. Unless he was staring at a wall, he was probably using a computer, which gives the presumption that he's affiliated with the univ., since non-affiliated people don't have computer access. If he was using a computer, they had no good justification to ask him for ID even if the school's policies say that unaffiliated people are banned from the library late at night.

The whole thing reeks.



Question. Why didn't he get up when asked? Why did they have to tell him to "Stand Up" 18,000,000 times?

Eh, feces transpires. If I was a security guard at that college I'd probably be a little over zealous to pop some yuppies too...

You can't be serious. You're putting us all on, right?

And being eager pop some yuppies- That's real ambassador to the world material right there.

They were tasering him to make him stand up. It's like when you grab your little brother's hand, and start banging it against him, and telling him "stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"

It doesn't make any sense at all to expect someone to stand after you've repeatedly applied an electric current to a person's nervous system.

:rolleyes:
 
No, I'm serious. :rolleyes:

Of course I'm being facetious. (Well, mostly. While I wouldn't actually pull out my tazer, I would however being thinking about tazing all those young punks who are probably destined to go off and live beautiful lives...how dare they!)

And while I'm sure one's motor skills might be a bit impaired after receiving such a shock, I have no doubts about my own ability to GET OFF MY BUTT if it means not getting tased again. (As fortold by the ominous words "Get off the **** floor before we taze you AGAIN")

I don't fully agree with what happened but I do feel confident that I could have dealt with it better on either end.

And what ever happened to the days of dragging around delinquent students by their ears?! Surely that would have worked with far less fuss.

(dang yuppies)
 
Heist, someone said later in that thread that the library has a policy of closing to the public and checking to make sure only students are in the library after 11PM. I don't think the policy does much good if the goal is to keep axe murderers away from students. However, I don't think the policy is particularly unreasonable, either. After all, UCLA is in Los Angeles, home to crazies, rich crazies, and gangs. The public is hardly short-changed by being asked to leave a public library at 11PM. Few if any non-university libraries are open that late. If you look at the library's schedule, it closes at 11PM sometimes. When it closes later, that could very well be intended solely for the benefit of UCLA students. I don't think that's so unreasonable, do you?

Those comments were also before I saw the video. We still don't know what he was doing when he was first asked for ID, but that doesn't excuse his acting like a 12-year-old. Los Angeles has, as many cities do, a curfew for minors. They should have arrested him on suspicion of curfew violation due to his juvenile antics. But they should have done so without using a taser.
 
After all, UCLA is in Los Angeles, home to crazies, rich crazies, and gangs.

You forgot 'yuppies' Tyme, the city of angels is home to lots and lots of yuppies too. Lousy rich spoiled UCLA-attending yuppies. The same type that probably vote for more gun control and drive foreign cars.
 
First- the officers involved in the incident were “police officers”, not “security guards”.

Second- when ordered to leave a building, area, or property by a person with the authority to do, and failing to comply with said order, means you’re trespassing. Actually, at that point, it’s “criminal trespass”. It’s nice to say, “I was engaging in ‘civil disobedience’, but that too is a crime.

Given the subject’s actions and verbal outbursts, the officer’s response to use a Taser probably fits into the “Use of Control” continuum quite nicely.

1. The officers have a few choices. They usually first try “verbal commands” to seek compliance. If there is none, they can go to the next step;

2. They can use “hands-on” techniques to grab the subject and end up wrestling around with him. There is a potential for injury involved in each and every “hands-on” incident- both to the subject and the officers. Or, they could use “pepper spray”, which in most departments, falls into play at that level. Or, they could use a Taser which also falls into that level.

3. Personally, I’d have tased him, cuffed him, and he would have been arrested. The charges would have been: Criminal Trespass, Breach of Peace/Disorderly Conduct, Interfering with an Officer, and the best of all- Inciting a Riot. If he had struck me or one of my officers during the incident, I'd have also hit him him with Assault on an Officer. So, at the very least, that kid would have gone to lock-up for several serious misdemeanors and, if there had been an assault, a felony.

Regardless of what you "think" your rights are, those rights do no include being able to do what you want when you want.

Since the use of a Taser seems to be an issue, I'll say that a Taser is a less-than-lethal method of control. Using one is better than beating someone with a stick or baton. Using one is better than having officers go hands-on. Frequently, going hands-on is a lose-lose situation for both the officers and the subject.

There is an easy answer to being ordered to leave a building when done so by a legal authority. That is to leave.
 
There is an easy answer to being ordered to leave a building when done so by a legal authority. That is to leave.

Yes, but the boy was a student there, who had all rights to be there? Would the Police have the right to ask him to leave? (not being difficult, actually asking)
 
The boy didn't have or refused to provide ID.


I think we can all agree that we could use a little more info about what happened. It could have been at least three things:

1. The kid is an immature liberal dingbat who thinks he is Jesus/Gandi/MLK because he stood up to some befuddled streetcops over his ID.

2. The kid has some serious mental health issues and we are all going to hell for secretly laughing everytime we heard the buzz.

3. Any combination of the above two an a few cops who were sadistic schmucks who get off on Tasing folks.


I can't say if what happened was Kosher without more info.
 
Greg Bell said:
I think it was funny as hell. I love the part where the kid was screaming about the "patriot act." What a moron.

Greg summed up my thoughts exactly...

If this was UCLA it is the ground zero in the liberal homeworld! The kid seems to be wanting to make incident larger and escalate it rather than comply...

I think this kid's parents are wasting their money.
 
3. Personally, I’d have tased him, cuffed him, and he would have been arrested. The charges would have been: Criminal Trespass, Breach of Peace/Disorderly Conduct, Interfering with an Officer, and the best of all- Inciting a Riot. If he had struck me or one of my officers during the incident, I'd have also hit him him with Assault on an Officer. So, at the very least, that kid would have gone to lock-up for several serious misdemeanors and, if there had been an assault, a felony.

I'd also like to think you'd tase him, cuff him, and drag him out of there under arrest...rather than tase him, cuff him, tase him a few more times for good luck, then end up dragging him out of there.

Since the kid was a student registered at the school, who paid fees for the use of that library, you'd be incredibly lucky to make a trespass charge stick...that'd just be extra paperwork. Forgetting his ID, as well as refusing to leave when immediately asked to leave by the CSO (or whatever they call the student security personnel), are issues to be dealt by the school's disciplinary system, not the courts. The UCLA PD seemed to agree, and the only charge he was arrested for was interfering with an officer.

Now, once the "real" cops show up, he got pretty stupid. One thing I'd like to note is that the witness accounts (as opposed to the police report) seem to suggest that he was already leaving when the cops showed up, and their stopping him for questioning, rather that just letting him leave, is was indirectly led to the incident (his immature response being the direct cause).

So, I don't think too many people are jumping to second-guess the initial use of the taser. Any LEOs around here care to comment on the additional uses, when it was used simply for "pain compliance" (a term I've only recently learned due to this case) on an unruly college kid? Is it common to tase a kid who is not being in any way violent, who is already handcuffed, and who is being held by two officer on either side?

In case anybody tries to argue that he was being physically violent, or that the police had any reason to fear he would be: watch the video. You can clearly hear the police say "get up or you'll get tased again." In at least once case, you can clearly see him get zapped while held by two officers, cuffed, and doing nothing but going limp. I'm sure the officers would rather not have to exert the effort to drag him out, but is their laziness cause for the use of on-the-spot corporal punishment?

Lastly, any LEOs care to comment on the one officer's decision to threaten a student asking for his badge number (albeit somewhat belligerently) with tasing as well? While holding a taser? Is that standard police policy where you live?

Lastly, I'd like to comment on something I've noticed in every comment I've ever heard from a cop regarding any case like this; am I the only one who think that the absolute refusal of LEOs to ever publicly question the actions of another LEO, regardless of how out of line, might be part of why the public often has such a negative opinion of them? I don't think most cops would go to town on a handcuffed kid who is being held just because he refuses to walk on his own...but when no officer seems willing to suggest that this is clearly out of line, it implies that they would.
 
Lastly, any LEOs care to comment on the one officer's decision to threaten a student asking for his badge number (albeit somewhat belligerently) with tasing as well? While holding a taser? Is that standard police policy where you live?

Frankly, yes. There is a lot of that macho crap going on around here. :barf:
 
"Macho crap" as in threatening people with tasers, or "macho crap" as in demanding badge numbers?

I'm personally just disturbed by the nonchalant use of the taser in this situation (and others I've read about). Just because it doesn't cause permanent damage doesn't mean it's a toy, or that using it should be no big deal. The fact that I'd be arrested for assault for so much as waving it in somebody's direction would seem to support the idea that it is, in fact, a weapon...however nonlethal.
 
I was referring to threatening folks for asking questions. That is a common practice these days.

That is one of the reasons I laugh off all the paranoia about the "Patriot act" and other bugaboos. The cops can already compel you to provide evidence against yourself at roadside, kick your door in without announcing, cover all manner of unconstitutional behavior with the "hot pursuit" doctrine. The silly trivial crap that the Patriot act is nothing compared to the rights we have long lost due to the war on drugs.
 
I think this kid is going to get a lot of money from the school
1. For excessive use of force.
Assuming he wasn't physically combative when "resisting” there was no need for a tazer. Two well-built cops could have hand cuffed him and dragged him away.
Also, I thought tazers were for subduing physically combative suspects, again assuming he wasn't physically combative.
2. Race card!
The kid seems to be of Arab ilk.

IMO, the tazer was excessive and the kid was being a moron.
 
The silly trivial crap that the Patriot act is nothing compared to the rights we have long lost due to the war on drugs.

Yeah, as soon as you turn police from peace officers to soldiers fighting a "War" nothing good is likely to follow. Maybe next will be the "War on Belligerent and Vaguely Middle-Eastern Looking Library Patrons." Then this guy will be really screwed.

I did enjoy him shouting the stupid nonsensical crap about the Patriot Act, as if it had anything to do with anything. But I guess after a couple pokes from the ol' Taze-E-Boy you're not likely to be thinking clearly.

Lastly, wouldn't threatening a bystander with a weapon when all he is doing is asking for your badge number constitute assault, even for a police officer? That was one part that was very clearly caught on video. Not that I expect it to be pursued, especially considering the LAPDs statement about "not making decisions based on videos, or portions of videos" due to the rash of incidents caught on cellphones lately...but I'd like to think there is some sort of "crime" involved there.

Though, in fairness to the officer he didn't specifically threaten the student for asking for his badge number. No, the student's tase-worthy infraction was "not standing over there," which seems in line with the department's other accepted uses of the taser for such infractions as "not standing up" and "not walking that way."


@Omega Blood: The video doesn't show much of how things started, but for the subsequent tasings he was very obviously not physically combative...verbally yes but physically no. Also, with a name like "Mostafa Tabatabainejad" I'm guessing he's of the Middle Eastern persuasion. For some reason, Iranian is sticking in my head from the news stories.
 
Back
Top