(TX) Feds Ran Into More Resistance Than Expected at Waco

mrat,

The Nuremburg trial made it clear that an individual is free not to follow orders that are to his thinking immoral. Clearly firing at people escaping a burning building, as one expert pointed out from the FLIR videos, is an order that should not have been followed.

BTW what was Lon Hourichi, the sniper from Ruby Ridge, doing at Waco?

In defense of LEOs, haven't the Texas Rangers played a crucial part in investigating the Waco massacre?

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
I have notice that whenever the BATF or other Federal LEO's do a raid, they always kill the pets. At Ruby Ridge, I believe the first victim was the family dog. I heard about a BATF raid against a gun show promoter once, where they killed the guy's cats. Do they do this just to rub in their power and authority?
 
mrat

What Tecolote said.

YOU got to make the call. Not the supervisor, not the judge. YOU.

Check your moral compass.

If a firearms confiscation order comes down do you obey and become one of the armed elite, or disobey and lose your job and YOUR firearms? A person has to do a lot of "what ifs" ahead of time, otherwise someone else makes your decisions for you.

A person does not need an attorney; just a conscience.

BTW I did not contend that individual officers/agents should review the warrant. The warrant may be perfectly legal. It is the actions of INDIVIDUALS in the process of serving the warrant with which I take exception.

Incidently, what is legal one minute is illegal the next. For a classic example look a the Dred Scott Decision of the Supreme Court prior to the War of Northern Aggression and the turn around the Court did during the War.

-William



[This message has been edited by William R. Wilburn (edited July 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by William R. Wilburn (edited July 03, 2000).]
 
I'm not LE, but I am military.

I cannot refuse the orders of those appointed over me.

Period.

Lt. Calley proved that the "just following orders" is not a valid military defense; yet the thousands of people court martialed or Article 15'ed every year show that not following orders will also get you sent to jail or correctional custody.

Is is a vicious Catch-22. You are most certainly damned if you do and damned if you don't, and I can only assume that the LE brotherhood of blue is in the same miserable boat.

How to fix it? Clean up the top end...the orders flow down from the top dawgs to the little dawgs to the peons. The top dawgs are politicians.

Vote.

And don't waste American's time on third parties...that got my current Commander in Chief elected. Twice.

I'm more Libertarian than anything, and understand that whole argument, but it is better to get people we can reason with in power than people that are divinely convinced of their own moral and intellectual superiority.

Vote.

Alex
 
wakal,

If you're ordered to fire into an unarmed crowd, and you don't, you will likely be court marshalled. The questions is will the charge stand? Of course you cannot use the moral defense for everything, just for moments that clearly bridge the gap between what is acceptable and what is not.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
wakal

During the My Lai Incident involving Lt. Calley a chopper pilot positioned his aircraft, on the ground, between US ground forces to prevent the murder of civilians. His crew-chief had orders to fire on the US forces if they did not cease and desist "operations." The pilot and crew chief got medals for their action last year. Belated recogniton, but well deserved.

Check out the Sand Creek Massacre. A Regular Army Officer protested the planned attack. He also was decorated.

If you believe you cannot disobey ANY order your miltary training has been lax. Not only can you disobey illegal orders, but you are, by UCMJ, REQUIRED to disobey such orders.

-William
 
We have gone from discussing the legality of a warrant to shooting into unarmed crowds in Vietnam in the 60s. It is a no brainer that shooting an unarmed civilian is immoral. I was under the impression we were discusing the warrant that was obtained at Waco and how it was served.

My position on how the ATF handled this is quite clear. William, you stated you did not like the way the warrant was executed (no pun intended). To see how I approach this look at my earlier post on this thread to see how I prefer to serve warrants that I am handeling.

I do agree with Wakal, we must start cleaning at the top. The people that order these things are still in power (Janet Reno, FBI/ATF commanders etc.) Locking up some line LEOs will get us no where because the people who order these things are untouched and have an endless supply of fresh agents to order around. We could fire/imprison every LEO in this country and it would not matter as long as the people at the top are making the orders.



[This message has been edited by mrat (edited July 03, 2000).]
 
This is the sort of crap we get when the federal government usurps power and sticks its nose into matters that are none of its business.

mrat posted:

Locking up some line LEOs will get us no where because the people who order these things are untouched and have an endless supply of fresh agents to order around.

So, basically, LEOs are mindless robots that simply must act on programmed information? Surely you can't mean that, mrat.

We could fire/imprison every LEO in this country and it would not matter as long as the people at the top are making the orders.

Well, no one was suggesting that. The point was about the "following orders" defense. A LEO who knows right from wrong may not change "the system," but may keep a husband from losing his wife, a wife from losing her husband, or parents from losing a child, all because someone may not have paid a couple hundred bucks in gun taxes. Shoot, I have to feed my family too, that doesn't mean I can justify any action because "my boss told me to."

Well, lads, we all have to make moral choices and LEOs are not exempt, though some (I said some now...) think, act, and speak as though they should be. Right. If my boss takes money from our employer and gives me a cut, or gives me free merchandise, or tells me to help him embezzle from the company, and I do it, I'm guilty as charged, whether I was following orders or not.

This is America (or was?)...LEOs who don't have the backbone to stand against what is wrong clearly don't have what it takes to do such an important job for the republic. Last I checked, they're free to work anywhere they can get hired.

And if they screw up, they have to pay the price, just like the rest of us. "The devil made me do it" just don't cut it as a defense.







[This message has been edited by Franklin W. Dixon (edited July 03, 2000).]
 
Franklin - Great post.

Jeff OTG - You seem to be up to speed on this "advisory jury" thing. Do you know how they were picked and by whom? This whole thing looks a little funny to me but I was elected Mr. Paranoid for the last 7 years running. :)

Boy, is TFL a super forum or what! Great thread here with great posts and one's been permently injured yet.

RKBA!
 
Mrat, I was a cop. I disobeyed orders all the time. Eventually they wanted to get rid of me and started to make my job as difficult as they could. Mostly I wouldnt enforce stupid gun laws. Fortunately (sic)I was injured before they could do any real damage. I personally know a cop who was framed by the dept. that I was working for. They planted a bag of pot on his front porch, did an investigation, arrested him, it's under appeal now. He'll probably get convicted.
 
Mr. Wilburn:

Of course I know that I am supposed to ignore or disobey any order that is unlawful; I also understand the reality of the military...in that I will go to jail (a real prison, miserable, as it should be, not a civilian prison) on the whim of the military regardless of whether or not I am morally right.

Will I go to jail to uphold my beliefs?

Yes.

As a quick military aside, a friend of mine has nightmares about NOT killing a child in Somalia. Little 8-10 year old ran up along side my friend's Hummer and threw a gernade in. He had a bead on the kid as he ran up, but couldn't pull the trigger.

Not because the ROE clearly stated that no civilians would be targeted or that no weapons could be used (which they did), but because his own son was about that age.

The pin was still in place on the gernade when it bounced in the HUMVEE.

It has been years now, but he still feels that he should have killed the boy. And been court-martialed.

Were I wearing four stars insead of four stripes, I would have given him a medal if he had killed the little ****bag. However, it wouldn't have been murderous little bomber vs. American troops, the media would have spun it to innocent child murdered by evil Military.

Sigh.

Anyway, back on topic: most line LEO's I've met are hard working folks who mean well. It is the politicing morons on top...who seek only to lick the hand of their political masters...that order the inane policies, or don't stand up and yell "BS" when those policies flow downhill from that swampy Font Of All Intelligence In America.

Big sigh.

Vote wisely.

Alex
 
Franklin Dixon,
You COMPLETELY missed the point I was trying to make. Take a deep breath, get past the anger and read my last post again please!

Arrell,
I am sorry that your employment turned out the way it did, I truly understand. I was at my last deparment for ten years and I was headed down the same road as you. I refused to tote the party line and it became painfully obvious that the top guys were out to get me. When a friend of mine with the same beliefs got the ax after twenty years on the job I saw the writing on the wall.

So guys, I don't think a lot of you know the BS that LEOs are facing today (in a lot of agencies). Let me turn this around and ask you guys how are you going to help LEOs that get the shaft for standing up for what they believe in. We are flopping out in the wind by ourselves.

One thing that has not been discussed on this thread is just because you (or I) think an order is illegal that does not make it illegal.

[This message has been edited by mrat (edited July 04, 2000).]
 
wakal related an incident in Somalia involving a child throwing a grenade into a vehicle.
This occurred because the military has been thrust into the role of policeman where the rules of engagement are not the rules of a battlefield. Perimeter security and free-fire zones (except at Ruby Ridge) have little meaning in police work.
Armies are to be used to break things and kill people. When the mission is other than that they are being used incorrectly. This frustrates the troops and we get into areas of morality and legality where young men must rely on more experienced and educated leaders to guide them. The rules of engagement are not longer: "Shoot anybody in a different uniform." There are no uniforms.
Of the child that threw the grenade: this happens in every guerrilla war. The use of children is SOP. It is a win-win situation for the bad guys. If the kid pulls off the attack he is a hero; if he dies he is a martyr. Most of the time the soldier who kills the kid feels deep and lasting guilt. Most of the time. I know a Viet Nam era vet who "...shot kids like they were ground squirrels." He is seemingly well adjusted and works as a deputy sheriff. No outward hang-ups. I guess he is one of the 5%.

Perimeter security IS perimeter security even if the AO is a moving vehicle.

The rules of engagement and politics have made a soldiers life difficult. I am sure that complaint was heard in Alexander's army too.

wakal,

You need not go to prison for disobeying an order. Extreme example follows:

A close friend of mine was ordered by a Marine Corps Major to get him a cup of coffee.
I might note this is not a big moral decision. No lives or property were at stake.
In the course of events that followed my friend, an NCO, rendered said Major unconscious. The NCO spent time in the brig awaiting trial, was put in leg-irons, hand-irons, a waist-chain and transported on a commercial airline in said condition to courts martial. Result: Fifteen minutes after the courts martial began my friend had his irons struck and the Major had a letter of reprimand in his file.

You must have more faith in the brass.
"Duty, Honor, Country" really mean something to the great majority of them.
The odds are great that you will never recieve an unlawful order. You work with some good people. I say trust them.
Your posts show you to be a thinking and feeling person. Trust yourself.

-William
 
I will direct this at no one but as a general statement.I have to look at myself in the mirror every morning.
I was fired from a job and spent almost 2 years living in a tent BECAUSE I WOULD NOT PAD CUSTOMERS BILLS.I have a thing called free will which allows me to to either do or not to do as my beliefs dictate.
To kill someone because you are ordered to!
I suscribe to no religion but where are you going to spend you afterlife.
I will follow no order I consider wrong no matter what the consquences.I think I proved that being homeless for 2 yrs.
This was a minor thing in most peoples eyes but to kill or harm innocent people because you do not have the guts to go out and find another job or have to face a courts martial or a trial?What kind of people do that?And how can anyone live with themselfs knowing what they did?
This is one subject I get very worked up about and I believe part of being a responsibe HUMAN being.

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 
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