Two attackers, one armed?

Status
Not open for further replies.
BG#1 goes down center mass
If the sucking and gargling sounds coming from his buddy are not enough deterrent and he starts fumbling for the dropped knife or in his pockets he goes down too. If he panics and runs away I would not shoot him in the back, better to run than tango with the MagSafe .44 specials
 
If you shoot the first guy and then the second keeps moving in, then you could possibly shoot him. It's going to be tricky defending shooting an unarmed guy. He's not a "group of people" attacking you anymore. I could see a DA making a big deal about that, even though personally, I think he'd have just proved he's mentally unstable if he's walking toward you after you just shot his partner.

I say the shoot the guy without the knife first, there are two of them so in most states that would count as disparity of force, you can still shoot an unarmed attacker if you fear for your life because you are outnumbered. Next pop the guy with the knife, he had a weapon and clearly intended to do you harm! You get two for the price of one and you just did society and big favor! Its all about the order you shoot them in!

[The State of California has determined that these comments contain "tongue in cheek" and may be bad for your health]
 
It is interesting that most of the responses to this situation are heavily biased by the potential action of the District Attorney rather than purely self defense.

Well, that was the original question: "can you safely assume both are armed from a legal standpoint? I could see a prosecutor saying...".

However, I think that in general, the responses discuss the question, "what is self defense, and what is not?". That question must, by its very nature, be addressed by discussing the law in the locality at hand and how prosecutors, judges, and juries are likely to judge various events.

I think there have been some good answers here.

Of course, the answer will be very situation specific.

This is a problem brought about by the rampant increase in political correctness in our society.

I respectfully disagree. The question of when deadly force is justified--which in most places leads directly to the question of what constitutes self defense--has been at the root of the deliberation of a lot of homicide cases for centuries. When a homicide is committed, it is either unlawful or it is justified, and the determination will be made in each case by the judicial system. I don't know that that much has changed in that regard since the beginning of the formulation of the common law.

When you are personally attacked, adrenaline and the fear of being badly hurt are front and center, and I personally believe that I will not put my self defense actions second while stopping to decide what the DA might do in between each action.

Yes, you need to know first what your objective is, and what it is not.

This leads me to suggest that the firearms community needs to spend a lot of effort to educate the unaware public how law abiding citizens have a right to defend ourselves from law breaking thugs - armed or not.

Not a bad idea, but we best educate ourselves on what constitutes the proper exercise of that right first.

Here are some resources that should prove helpful toward that end. They're too lengthy to cut and paste here. It would be a good idea to bookmark, print, and study them--if possible, start before loading your gun:

http://www.useofforce.us/

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&Click=

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm

http://www.corneredcat.com/

It's also a very good idea to get some training, and perhaps to invest in an hour or two of consultation with a qualified local attorney. That won't be the one who does wills and bankruptcy filings, in most cases.



One way to educate the public (and DA's) is to widely disseminate stories of the many times that CCW citizens have saved family, friends and neighbors from brutal attacks by law breaking individuals.

I don't think most DA's need education on the subject. They and their staffs know the law, the case law, and what has happened in their communities.

Actually, the number of times CCW citizens draw guns in self defense is probably pretty small, and the number of times they fire when in harms way is a whole lot smaller. From the standpoint of the public, I think what they need to know is probably two-fold: that they cannot expect the police to provide them with personal protection--that's up to them; and that even if they (the public) choose to not carry, the fact that they may be carrying concealed makes them safer.
 
I say the shoot the guy without the knife first, there are two of them so in most states that would count as disparity of force, you can still shoot an unarmed attacker if you fear for your life because you are outnumbered. Next pop the guy with the knife, he had a weapon and clearly intended to do you harm! You get two for the price of one and you just did society and big favor! Its all about the order you shoot them in!

[The State of California has determined that these comments contain "tongue in cheek" and may be bad for your health]

Good thing there's a disclaimer on that!

It may be that in some situations that argument might prevail, I don't know. But that reasoning having been posted beforehand could prove most troublesome for the defense.
 
Let's say there's two robbers that stop you in a parking lot. one displaying a knife with the cliche "gimme yo money!" ... do you treat them as one threat and shoot at both (disparity of force), can you safely assume both are armed from a legal standpoint?
Why make the assumption that shooting anybody is the best way to handle this? I don't know how much money you carry around with you, but I'd bet it is less than paying the attorney will be after you shoot somebody.
 
Why make the assumption that shooting anybody is the best way to handle this? I don't know how much money you carry around with you, but I'd bet it is less than paying the attorney will be after you shoot somebody.

Good point David. I was writing as if shooting had occured or the need arised. Giving over your wallet is alot cheaper and safer. Especially if your with childern/family types. However, sometimes things dont work that way. Here in DC not to long ago there was a pizza man robbed, he complied and was shot anyways.
 
For me it has nothing to do with money... As soon as I am sure a person is seriously violent enuff to rob me I am sure my life does not mean as much to them as it does to me and I will commence to survive! Or die trying. And I also have a higher risk factor as I doubt my paltry amount of cash will satisfy the thug and possibly anger them enuff to go stickin' and gittin'
Brent
 
And I also have a higher risk factor as I doubt my paltry amount of cash will satisfy the thug and possibly anger them enuff to go stickin' and gittin'

:D

I'm in the same boat, the most valuable thing there getitng off my is my gun.
 
Why make the assumption that shooting anybody is the best way to handle this? I don't know how much money you carry around with you, but I'd bet it is less than paying the attorney will be after you shoot somebody.

I'm the original poster and with me they would get no cash. I never said I was protecting any money by shooting. I only carry a debit card thanks to a pick-pocket that nailed me for 300+ one day at an interstate welcome center a thief now would get a wallet full of receipts.

The possibility of a knife in me is why the bulllet would come into play at all.

The thing is, you don't know for sure if the second guy is armed or not, but if he is... let's say guy 2 has a gun concealed... its going to take him at most 2 seconds to draw and fire. so you have 2 seconds to reorient, reassess decide whether to shoot or not, get a good sight picture and pull the trigger. It's possible with that time frame your bullets could pass by each other, or even he might get to his business while you are still scratching your noggin.

If he wasn't armed you have just shot an unarmed man and risk prosecution.

Suits don't scare me nearly as much as prosecution. If you sue me all you will get is practice. (and in my state if the shooting is deemed justified by the DA or a grand jury, the shooter is immune from civil liability)

Criminal prosecution however could possibly take away my freedom for the rest my life and THAT is a lot to ante up.
 
I started chewing on my tongue when this thread started (it's getting pretty sore, BTW)

1) Absolutely, avoid shooting someone if you can.

2) If my wife & child are present when I'm threatened with a deadly weapon, said weaponholder's chance of survival drops to about 1/10th of 1%. I wouldn't "just" be defending myself & I would not allow him to incapacitate me, then have free reign to do as he pleased with my wife and daughter. Think about it.

3) I *know* that I have heard, either in my CCW class or in one of the legal documents that I have read that when attackers are acting as a group they can ALL be assumed to intend and be capable of inflicting as much bodily injury as any other member of their group.

Sure, there could be situations where shooting the closest or greatest perceived threat would change the remaining attacker's perspective of the situation, resulting in him backing down. More likely though, it would be a very close quarters situation and once I see one knife or gun at contact distance BG #2 aint gonna have time to change his mind and turn tail.

Practice engaging multiple targets.
 
Why make the assumption that shooting anybody is the best way to handle this? I don't know how much money you carry around with you, but I'd bet it is less than paying the attorney will be after you shoot somebody.

Gosh. That idea blew by me. The spare wallet may in fact be the best strategy.

If a trained person like Mas Ayoob recommends it, why should I not use the idea?
 
Conc%20TripleK%20Thinline%20Wallet%20Holster.jpg

The only wallet I will give a crook...
AND BOY AM I GONNA LET 'EM HAVE IT!!!!
Brent
 
We do not however, either morally or legally, have the right to kill some one who cannot or will not kill us. If you shoot the attacker with the knife and his buddy is just standing there then shooting him is murder, IMHO. Now, having him looking down the barrel whilst you determine his intent to continue the fight is just plain logic but you must not shoot unless and until he makes himself a threat or a continued threat.
__________________

Ok, let's examine the scenario here. I am being attacked by two BGs. One of which has shown a knife and demanded my money. This is just me but if I draw, both get at least two rounds COM as fast and agressively as I possibly can. That stops the threat. I'll let the DA sort it out later. There is already disparity of force with an obvious threat on my life. You guys do what you think best but I am going to react with an imperfect plan implemented as suddenly and violently as I can.

Hey but listen to pizzamurderer and creature as they make TFL the number 1 site on the internet for gun related info according to the most wise and powerful wizard WildAlaska. Now excuse me while I go giggle into my pillow.
 
Last edited:
hogdogs said:
The only wallet I will give a crook...
AND BOY AM I GONNA LET 'EM HAVE IT!!!!
Brent

Hogdogs, that holster looks very unsafe to me. I always want a cover over the trigger on anything that I carry. Based on that design, it seems you have to draw by pulling on the trigger(!) since the grip is covered too.
 
Good point mahoo, but think of how you draw your current wallet... Mine has no hole or "grip" and it draws real clean. A back pocket carried pistol is less likely to have pocket knife or keys hung up in trigger as well.
for me the right thumb is 'tween butt and wallet and four fingers tween wallet and pocket flap. Pistol would be drawn before inserting finger in trigger guard. I don't own one but would consider it as a viable option for mouse gun carry...
Brent
 
However, sometimes things dont work that way. Here in DC not to long ago there was a pizza man robbed, he complied and was shot anyways.
Agreed. Compliance should be the normal default response, but it should not prohibit other responses as appropriate if it does not work.
 
Suits don't scare me nearly as much as prosecution.
Won't be prosecuted if you don't do anything. That is my point. Way too many folks look at these things as "must shoot" situations instead of "do I have to shoot" situations. Shooting will frequently cost you more in the long run than not shooting will cost you, whether it be time, money, or other resources.
 
There is already disparity of force with an obvious threat on my life. You guys do what you think best but I am going to react with an imperfect plan implemented as suddenly and violently as I can.

Hm, interesting. Disparity of force changes millisecond by millisecond. Two guys with a knife versus one innocent? Yep, disparity of force. One defender with a gun, a disabled or dead knifer and his unarmed buddy standing there with wet pants. The entire situation has changed. Shooting a man who is posing no threat is murder. It doesn't matter what he was doing or intending to do 2 seconds ago. It matters what he's doing RIGHT NOW. Shoot him before he threatens you and YOU are the BG. NOW, which side has a disparity of force? Now who is the attacker?

Hey but listen to pizzamurderer and creature as they make TFL the number 1 site on the internet

You can address any problems with me via PM. Creature is a part of what makes this site worthwhile. He and I have had our share of disagreements, believe me, but that doesn't mean he brings no value to this site. Healthy discourse is part of why I'm here, personal attacks when a party has reached the end of their logical argument is not.
 
Shooting will frequently cost you more in the long run than not shooting will cost you, whether it be time, money, or other resources.

That's one big reason why shooting is, for me, the last resort.

It's an option, but I don't want to use it unless I absolutely have to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top