Turning firearm over to a peace officer on traffic stop.

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Okay--

In Texas, you are required to produce your CHL with your DL if you are carrying a weapon. During the early days of the CHL, many, many officers got bad advice. I remember sitting in my first '10-44' class and listening to an instructor tell me quite confidently that anyone having a CHL was required to present it at all times. Sigh. Bad training is a minimal excuse, but it happens. I hope, however, that we got all that sorted out.

As far as telling the officer that you have a weapon, I would.

In 1994, I stopped a man for running a red light. He had a 1911A1 in a shoulder holster that he did not tell me about. Midway through the stop, I asked to see his rental agreement for the car, he had it in his coat pocket. When he opened it up, all I saw was him reaching for the butt of a pistol. Things rapidly went rodeo from that point.

If he had told me at the intial contact that he had a pistol, he'd have left the scene with a ticket for running a red light. Instead, he almost got shot, got dragged through the car window by the nostrils, met several varities of North Texas sticker plants and spent the night in jail.

It's up to the y'all if you tell the LEO that you're armed. Err on the side of courtesy, though.

LawDog
 
Numbers,

Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience.

I had a very similar incident in San Antonio, with one of their finest that still leaves a bad impression on me to this very day.

In 1997, I had recently purchased a new F-150 pickup truck. On a nice clear Sunday morning I decided to load up a few pistols and head out to Blackhawk range. As I drove west on Loop 410, close to Bandera road, I watched a marked SAPD unit ahead of me tailgate three or four cars, in turn, as he ran their license plates for warrants. This guy was less that one car-length from this old Cadillac and riding his rear hard. My cruise control was on the speed limit. As I slowing crept by them, the cop pulls behind me and starts tailgating me. I know that I’m clean and figure that after he checks me out he will move on.

WRONG

Red lights in the rear view mirror. This guy cautiously walks up my vehicle with his hand on this weapon and asks for my driver’s license insurance card AND vehicle registration. After giving him my DL, insurance card and my CHL, I told the officer that I did not think that Texas required drivers to carry vehicle registration with them (I have only been driving for about 35 years). Officer starts screaming in my left ear that I don’t know what I am talking about and waving my CHL in my face stating that I don’t need any trouble with this. Having half a dozen handguns, and ammo, with me (cop didn’t know) I decided discretion was the better part of valor and sat quietly while this guy ranted in my ear for over ten minutes. Even though I knew that I was right about not needing to carry vehicle registration in Texas, I did not think a trip to jail on a Sunday, vehicle being impounded and towed, and pistols subjected to seizure and inventory seemed like a pleasant prospect. I just sat there thinking what a @sshole this guy was. He continues to rant about my radar detector and that I should never try to pass him. Finally, he finishes venting and says I can leave.

Unfortunately, I had left the little micro-cassette recorder that I use for communication work at home. (I now have one dedicated for my vehicle at all times).

Monday morning I called DPS and the Bexar County Tax Assessor Collector and asked them if Texas drivers are required to carry vehicle registration with them. Their answer, as I knew it would be, was no. The cop was clearly wrong for stopping me and wrong in his information, but backing him down would probably cost me a couple of hundred dollars plus inconvenience.

I always carry a copy of the “Texas Concealed Handgun Laws” handbook (from TDPS) and “Know your Texas Firearms Laws” (from TSRA) in my vehicle now.

It has been my experience that there are some good peace officers out there as well as a few that need to find another line of work.

Skyhawk
 
A twist on the theme:

Most people agree that it is reasonable for officers to ask for the surrender of knives when they deem it appropriate, so why not guns?

Erik
 
As a naive question, why would an officer feel the need to disarm a citzen who had already told the officer they had a weapon (and assuming everything else was in order)? Would they be trying to lull the officer into a false sense of security? For the record, I would tell the officer as a matter of course and even turn it over (hopefully temporarily!) if ordered to do so if it made them feel safer, but why should they need to disarm me, assuming I've been up front about the whole thing from the beginning? Granted, as an officer, one has no idea of John Q. Public's intentions, but then again I really have no idea of the officer's intentions either, but I can't ask them to turn over their weapon because I'm nervous. Not making a "cops=JBT" statement, by the way, just curious.
 
Lot of testosterone here.

Some folk are claiming that it was ok
to hose Diallo when he reached for his wallet. Now, some want not to give up
a gun when asked? Or you are going to
start to manipulate it by racking the slide,
blah - blah. The gun is in your hand and
you are not complying.

Do you now think that the cop should just
blow your brains out? I think he has a better case for this than the Diallo incident cops.

I've had two TX encounters. One with a Ranger and the other with a local PD - both very professional and no excitement.

If an officer ask me to do X, I would do it and shut up. Have you guys who argue you would do otherwise ever do a shoot - no shoot simulation on this stuff? You don't know how close you are to a hollowpoint brain enema.
 
Steve in PA: That is the reason i brought this thread here; was after reading the one over at Shooters. I read some responces by two posters over there that were.. in a word.. chilling. Name of the game is CONTROL on vehicle stops, RULES adhered to are MINE not the person being stopped. If you don't like that, then leave your guns off your person and out of your vehicle. I am for CCW and pro 2nd ammendment and don't want to take anyones guns away from them. But if someone chooses to make this issue personal while detained, that's thier problem. I merely do my job and my and your saftey is paramount. I know this may sound harsh to some of you but please step into my shoes for a minute or two and contemplate my end of it before passing judgement.
 
The point that I think you all are missing is not whether you should or shouldn't tell a cop who pulled you over for a traffic ticket (that you have a firearm in the car), but WHY should you tell them. The point of the red flashing lights and the pull over routine should be explained to you upon cracking your vehicle's window. What does speeding, running a red light, or changing lanes without a turn signal have to do with whether you're carrying a weapon or not? The point is, one has nothing to do with the other.

Furthermore, let's say your neighbor called the police on you for playing your stereo too loud. You answer the door and find a LEO standing there with the complaint of loud music. Do you invite the guy inside to explain that you have a small arsenal in the house???? Absolutely not! Because the loud music is the only issue. Period. This is the point.

If LEO's stereotype every vehicle that they pull over for traffic violations, as possible assailants in a road side shootout, we are all in very deep trouble. We cannot be subjected to "guilty before being proven innocent", we are in fact INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!!!

There are no dangerous weapons, there are only dangerous men.
 
Paul,

The point is that tempers can escalate very quickly during a traffic stop. I have had too many men and women who were co-operative during the intial part of the stop, work themselves into an absolute fury during the writing of the ticket. Does it happen every time? No. But it happens too often. I am going home at the end of my shift. One out fo a thousand poeple will try to kill me. If 400 out of that thousand are inconvienced during an arrest, I'm sorry, but may I suggest you find that thousandth guy and take it out on him? Your Rights end where my Right to go home to my family at the end of my shift begin.

If I stop you, I want to know if you have a weapon. If you do, I want you to leave it on the passenger seat while you step to the rear of the vehicle. You will remain at the rear of the vehicle while I write your ticket. That way, if you take the ticket personally, I merely have an beserk civilian who can be subdued by PPCT, pepper spray or impact weapons.

Remember, a ticket is an arrest. When you receive a ticket, you have been arrested. You have been charged with a crime(the ticket is the complaint) and you have been released on a Personal Recognisence Bond(the signature on the ticket is your bond).

If I leave you sitting in that vehicle, with a weapon in easy reach, and you stew over the injustice until you go ballistic--well, sucks to be me.

And sucks to be my department, because due to my poor use of tactics, your unfortunate death was obviously all my fault, and therefore myself (if I survive) and my department are liable in a Civil Court.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited February 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited February 08, 2000).]
 
Paul Revere and Law Dog, you gave me some food for thought. I think that I should seek legal council concerning this matter.

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited February 08, 2000).]
 
Paul,

In Texas it is mandated in the CHL law that you must provide your permit to a Peace officer, or judge, when asked for ID.

Prior to the passage of the CHL bill, many people carried, under a loose travel provision, and had the option of informing the officer if they had a firearm. Most did not.

Skyhawk
 
Lawdog...

If you've read a few of my posts (not just on this topic), you'll see that I am a strong Constitutionalist. I also follow a high moral and ethical standard, and am very principled in my belief system.

Furthermore, I neither doubt or envy your position as an LEO. I respect law enforcement personnel for the great committment and sacrifices they make every day while on/off duty. However, my point which is mine personally, is that you are prejudiced in every case by the bad component in our society, and therefore you treat each new case with the same prejudice. I understand your position about personal survival and what you need to do in order to insure your personal safety. But often times a good guy like myself (or anyone else who qualifies) becomes the target or focus of this prejudice. For that matter, most gun owners are victims of this very prejudice.

The majority of the people you do pull over may be worthy of further scrutiny, but not all of them are. We the people do not want to be treated as common criminals because of a traffic violation. And you aren't going to have every violator of a traffic law stand at the rear of his/her vehicle while you write your ticket.

My point is that the vast majority of gun laws were passed with good intentions, eventhough they clearly infringe upon our 2nd Amendment freedoms. They were passed with the intention of reducing crime. But they have failed because their true purpose was not to reduce crime, but to infringe upon the freedoms of the American people. To eventually strangle the potency out of each and every able body person, for the sole purpose of squashing a potential resistance to tyranny in progress. CHL/CCW licenses further perpetrate these infringements, and give their holders a false sense of security. You cannot license a right...licenses can be revoked, rights cannot. Holders are therefore subjected to unnecessary prejudice and undue scrutiny by LEOs for no other reason than a prejudice that stems from the falacy that guns are bad.

People who feel the need to carry a weapon to protect themselves from assailants are not bad people. They are not trigger happy killers in waiting, nor do they wish to spend the remainder of their lives incarcerated. Regardless of which un-Constitutional law you may site, we the people still have the right to keep and bear arms, are protected from unreasonable searches and seizures, and are innocent until proven guilty by a jury of our peers. Please let me know if these are no longer in existance.

There are no dangerous weapons, there are only dangerous men.
 
In the state of Tennessee you are required by law to inform/turnover you carry permit with you driver's licence when requested to by a LEO. Our drivers licence and carry permit numbers are the same. That being said, I have only been pulled over one time, I was way over the speed limit, since I got my permit.

It was at night, saw the blue lights behind me, and pulled over. Turned on the inside lights (I think this is a good idea, lets them be at ease when they approach the window). Handed over my licence and permit at the same time. He looked at them, and all he said was, "slow it down a little". Handed them right back. He never asked if I was armed, I was.

The key here is attitude and where you live. I live in a rural area. Do not act like you have a chip on your shoulder or something to hide and you will be OK. If I am asked to turn over my weapon, for nothing more than a minor traffic offense, will probably ask why, and also ask for a supervisor. This may be a case where three is company, not a crowd.


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John
(formerly johnboy)
 
i've only had this come up twice. once when required by law. once when discovery of the firearm was inevitable.

where required by law, he never requested the firearm. i had informed him that it was in my back pocket.

when discovery was inevitable, he was not overly concerned. he asked humorously if i was going to shoot him after i informed that i had a pistol in the glove compartmenet (i was in a borrowed car and was having to find the insurance). i told that i just didn't want to suprise him. i asked if it was ok to put the pistol (a .38 snub) in the floor. he said it was ok. in retrospect, i should have inquired exactly how he wanted me to handle the pistol because i was up in the air after going into the glove compartment.

[This message has been edited by needanak (edited February 08, 2000).]
 
Since my drivers license and owners cards are carried in my wallet and not the glove box or console, and it is very unlikely that I will have a firearm in either. I'm not going to say a word. I know of no law here in PA that I must disclose to an LEO that I'm carrying a firearm on my person or in my vehicle. Now if for some reason the subject is brought up then we will take it from there.


Happy Shooting :)




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Help Stamp Out Gun Ignorance.
 
12-34hom:

I've made stops & been stopped. I agree with your "everybody goes home" premise.

& no flames here, but ...

I'm at the wheel, have given you "my papers" & tell you I've a cocked/locked BHP in a IWB, hands are on the wheel. & I'm being polite & cooperative & sober, BTW.

Would you ask (tell) me to get out of the vehicle & personally remove the pistol? Or ???

Besides the being disarmed bit for doing nothing (other than traffic infraction) wrong, I'd not care to have th epistol removed & less that someone who most likely hadn't any training with single action pistols.

I do see it as a real safety issue for one thing .....

Comments?
 
Paul Revere,

I second that ammendment! I can see Law Dogs point of view, but I think that you have gotten to the root of the problem. By virtue of the system, peace officers are placed in harms way more than need be had we true liberty in the USA. I think that this errosion of liberty has placed both peace officers and non'guvt citizens in potentially more dangerous situations. Therefore, situations arise which are volitile to both parties, often escalating emmotions.

I think that peace officers can thank a vast minority of BGs including greedy politicians that place them 75% of the time writing traffic citations, while fearing for their lives; rather than the average armed citizen exceeding the guvt velocity standard on public highways. If it weren't for the system being set up the way it is, there would not be near the amount of funding going into the pouch. Hence less $ = less power. We individuals are just little mice in the whole big picture.

The fact that we even need a permission slip to have the means to defend ourselves is an outrage. One more expl of guvt abuse of power and overstep of authority. I respectfully must disagree with the premise that CCW must be this or that. It is the criminal behavior of a few BGs that get pulled over and of a majority of BGs that get voted into office that make it dangerous for peace officers and ESPECIALLY for law abiding citizens. Nevertheless, I would respectfully comply with a peace officers wishes if pulled over. That does not mean that he is always going to be right. Nor does it give him justification to abuse authority. I do not believe that most do, nor am I implying that those posting here have. But where the boot fits, they have worn it and come under double responsibility and accountability because they are in a position of authority and power.

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
Paul Revere,

I second that ammendment! I can see Law Dogs point of view, but I think that you have gotten to the root of the problem. By virtue of the system, peace officers are placed in harms way more than need be had we true liberty in the USA. I think that this errosion of liberty has placed both peace officers and non'guvt citizens in potentially more dangerous situations. Therefore, situations arise which are volitile to both parties, often escalating emmotions.

I think that peace officers can thank a vast minority of BGs including greedy politicians that place them 75% of the time writing traffic citations, while fearing for their lives; rather than the average armed citizen exceeding the guvt velocity standard on public highways. If it weren't for the system being set up the way it is, there would not be near the amount of funding going into the pouch. Hence less $ = less power. We individuals are just little mice in the whole big picture.

The fact that we even need a permission slip to have the means to defend ourselves is an outrage. One more expl of guvt abuse of power and overstep of authority. I respectfully must disagree with the premise that CCW must be this or that. It is the criminal behavior of a few BGs that get pulled over and of a majority of BGs that get voted into office that make it dangerous for peace officers and ESPECIALLY for law abiding citizens. See JPFO.org/L-laws.htm Nevertheless, I would respectfully comply with a peace officers wishes if pulled over. That does not mean that he is always going to be right. Nor does it give him justification to abuse authority. I do not believe that most do, nor am I implying that those posting here have. But where the boot fits, they have worn it and come under double responsibility and accountability because they are in a position of authority and power.

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
RikWriter,

On the presumption that my earlier post is the one you are refering to as to carrying in FL, my statement was that if you are in possession of a firearm when in contact with a LEO you are obligated to inform the officer you are Lawful CCW holder and are in possession of a firearm. Statement wasn't to the fact of being a CCW Holder. Would believe the reason is a safety and awareness issue for LEO. Would hate for the officer to suddenly realize I'm carrying and didn't have the courteousy to tell him beforehand. Would make for a very uncomfortable situation at best wouldn't you agree? Pretty confident in my statement, believe it was part of the information presented during required training course.
As for surrendering firearm to LEO, agree on point that not the time to question Officer's judgement but would inform LEO of location of firearm on person and state a desire to remove magazine and then clear breach before handing over weapon. CCW is a priveledge (constitutional arguments aside) and challenging the LEO, being a law enforcement agent of the state, for his/her decision doesn't make sense to me, at least at that moment.
 
Borrowed this from my wife;

"The Lousy Cop"

Dear Mr. Citizen,
I guess you figured me out. I seem to fit neatly in the category where you placed me. I am stereotyped, characterized, standardized, classified, grouped and always typical. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true. I can never figure you out. From birth you teach your children that I am the boogeyman and then you're shocked when they identify with my traditional enemy, THE CRIMINAL. You accuse me of coddling juveniles until I catch your kid doing wrong. You wonder why you can't control your children and call me when they curse and disrespect you, calling me to take care of them for you. The next day I get another call, this time its you and your husband, wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, I arrive only to be cursed and disrespected by you in front of your son or daughter, the same one you called me about the day before. You take an hour for lunch and several coffe breaks each day, but point me out as a loafer if you catch me having just one cup. You pride yourself on your polished manners, but think nothing of disrupting my meals with your troubles. You raise hell with the guy who cuts you off in traffic, but let me catch you doing the same thing and I'm picking on you.
You know all the traffic laws, but you've never gotten a single ticket that you deserved. You are quick to call my Supervisor if you see me driving too fast on an emergency call, but raise hell if I take more that ten seconds to respond to your call. You call it part of my job if someone strikes me, but its police brutality if I strike back. You would not think of telling your dentist how to pull a badly decayed tooth or your doctor how to take out your appendix, but are always willing to give me a few pointers on the law. You talk to me in a manner that would assure a bloody nose from anyone else, but expect me to take it without batting an eye. You cry, "Something has got to be done about the crime!", but you can't be bothered with getting involved. You have no use for me at all, but of course its ok if I change a flat tire for your wife or deliver your child in the back seat of my radio car on the way to the hospital, or save your son's life with mouth to mouth recuscitation or work many hours looking for your lost daughter. So Mr. Citizen, you stand there on your soapbox and raise hell about the way I do my job, calling me every name in the book, but never stopping to think that your property, your family or maybe even your life depends on me or one of my buddies, the lousy cop.
 
Another one borrowed;

"A Cop on the Take"

First he took his oath,
Now look at all he takes.

He takes it in stride when people call him pig.
He takes time to stop and talk to your children.

He takes verbal abuse when he gives you a ticket you deserve.
He takes on creeps that you would even be afraid to look at.

He takes time away from his family to keep you safe.
He takes your injured child to the hospital.

He takes the graveyard shift without complaining because its his turn.
He takes his life in his hands daily.

He takes you home when your car breaks down.
He takes time to explain to you why both of your headlights have to work.

He takes the job that no one else wants, telling you a loved one has died.

He takes in sights that would make you cry, sometimes he cries too.

But he takes it away, because he has to. He takes memories to bed each night, memories that you couldn't bear for one day.

Sometimes he takes a bullet.

If he's real lucky, he takes his retirement and yes, the occasional free cup of coffee.

Then one day, he pays for all he has taken.

God takes him away.
 
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