What are the memberships thoughts on this subject? Consider this, you are a legally licensed CCW holder in whatever state you live in and are pulled over for a traffic violation. After requested to do so; You hand the officer your drivers license and also a copy of your CCW permit. The officer asks you to turn over your weapon after finding out you are armed, what is your response? How do you handel this situation without an escalation,and what repercussions does it hold if you chose not to follow officers directions? Any personal experiances with this type od scenerio? Thanks for any replies.
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Turning firearm over to a peace officer on traffic stop.
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Well in my state, if we are asked about a gun, and they ask to see it, we are supposed to let them see it.
As far as the CCW goes, I know some people have been told to hand the CCW/CHL along with the license but from what I have gathered from the few LEO's I have asked, they prefer that you do not do this unless they ask you for the CCW/CHL. They get this info anyway when they run your license and/or plates.
The one time I did give him my CHL he told me that he would have preferred I had not given it to him unless he had directly asked me about it. The school of thought is there is no reason to freak them out.
Some of the LEO's on this board can probably give you better advice than I can since I'm not an LEO.
Jon...
[This message has been edited by DrJon (edited February 08, 2000).]
As far as the CCW goes, I know some people have been told to hand the CCW/CHL along with the license but from what I have gathered from the few LEO's I have asked, they prefer that you do not do this unless they ask you for the CCW/CHL. They get this info anyway when they run your license and/or plates.
The one time I did give him my CHL he told me that he would have preferred I had not given it to him unless he had directly asked me about it. The school of thought is there is no reason to freak them out.
Some of the LEO's on this board can probably give you better advice than I can since I'm not an LEO.
Jon...
[This message has been edited by DrJon (edited February 08, 2000).]
GgnubrKihn
New member
Am a CCW holder in FL and it is my understanding that if you are pulled over for a traffic violation and you are carrying you are obligated to inform the LEO you are a Licensed CCW holder and that you are in possession of a firearm. Believe that is the rules.
Would comply with the officer's request.
[This message has been edited by GgnubrKihn (edited February 08, 2000).]
Would comply with the officer's request.
[This message has been edited by GgnubrKihn (edited February 08, 2000).]
If the LEO asks you to turn over your firearm, why in the world wouldn't you? It may just be for his peace of mind, and their job is hard enough already. FWIW, a friend of mine on the local homicide squad recommended handing them your CCW with your DL without comment, and allowing the officer to take the initiative at that point.
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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
I'm required by issuer to inform LEO upon official contact & have no problem with that. Says nothing about handing over my firearm.
As for "why wouldn't you?" Why should I have to? No flames/rant, but after going through a background check, being "proven" to be a good guy, "allowed" to bear arms - why would an LEO have a problem with me having one in his presense? Would he too ask me to put it on the sidewalk if we had official contact while I was walking down the street?
Ex-LEO here & I'd have no prob w/honest folks w/firearms.
Too, I'd be quite a bit leery handing over a chambered/hammer back BHP to an uninitiate LEO just for safety reasons.
& don't I have the drop on LEO when I hand the pistol to him? You do have to draw the pistol to hand it over.
Unless I'm at gunpoint, no chance he could "beat the clock" on a pistol already in hand.
As for "why wouldn't you?" Why should I have to? No flames/rant, but after going through a background check, being "proven" to be a good guy, "allowed" to bear arms - why would an LEO have a problem with me having one in his presense? Would he too ask me to put it on the sidewalk if we had official contact while I was walking down the street?
Ex-LEO here & I'd have no prob w/honest folks w/firearms.
Too, I'd be quite a bit leery handing over a chambered/hammer back BHP to an uninitiate LEO just for safety reasons.
& don't I have the drop on LEO when I hand the pistol to him? You do have to draw the pistol to hand it over.
Unless I'm at gunpoint, no chance he could "beat the clock" on a pistol already in hand.
Under the current CCW laws of SC, anyone who holds a CWP must carry the permit on his person at all times, regardless of whether he is armed or not. If stopped by police for any reason, he is required to present the CWP immediately, w/o being asked. I believe it's up to the discretion of the officer as to what should be done with the gun. Most cops I know would just leave it alone.
I was stopped once when I had my .45 GM legally in the glove box of my car. When the officer asked for my registration, I informed him that it was in the GB, and that there was also a handgun in there. He asked me to step out of the car, then he opened the GB and withdrew both gun & registration papers. What got me was that he swept me with the muzzle, and then laid my cocked & locked pistol on the roof of the car with the muzzle pointed in my direction! Idiot! In retrospect, I wish I had gotten his name and badge # and reported that.
I've been stopped in that same situation by other officers, and they have told me to just retrieve the papers, no sweat.
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Shoot straight regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center http://forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
I was stopped once when I had my .45 GM legally in the glove box of my car. When the officer asked for my registration, I informed him that it was in the GB, and that there was also a handgun in there. He asked me to step out of the car, then he opened the GB and withdrew both gun & registration papers. What got me was that he swept me with the muzzle, and then laid my cocked & locked pistol on the roof of the car with the muzzle pointed in my direction! Idiot! In retrospect, I wish I had gotten his name and badge # and reported that.
I've been stopped in that same situation by other officers, and they have told me to just retrieve the papers, no sweat.
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Shoot straight regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center http://forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
I agree. There should be no reason for an LEO to ask for my firearm. But, having worked on the periphery of LE (military security, etc.) I also understand just how concerned most LEO's are about making sure their families see them walking through the door at the end of their shift. If it makes 'em feel better to have positive control of my firearm, so be it - their job is hard enough already.
Plus, I'm just old enough to have been raised in the "Do what the nice policeman says" school. Are they all nice? No. But most of them aren't JBT's, either.
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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
Plus, I'm just old enough to have been raised in the "Do what the nice policeman says" school. Are they all nice? No. But most of them aren't JBT's, either.
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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
I don't have a CCW. But I practice and teach my son to just say yes sir, no sir, thank you sir and have a nice day sir. Also to do what they say. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing otherwise. Life is already complicated enough. Besides, if I were a LEO I think that I would be more scared of the person I just pulled over then the other way around. Any stats on LEO deaths during traffic stops. I'd be willing to bet it's one of the more risky parts of the job. Imagine how crazy some of those stops must get? Do you really want to challenge an already nervous guy who has the power over your future at that moment? I think the main objective would be to avoid a confrontation.
In Texas, you are required to present your CHL when police, or a judge, requests ID (only while you are carrying a handgun). In probably a dozen encounters with police, have only had one occasion where officer removed pistol from my person. Most seem relatively unconcerned as long as you are not involved in a felony stop.
Skyhawk
[This message has been edited by Skyhawk (edited February 08, 2000).]
Skyhawk
[This message has been edited by Skyhawk (edited February 08, 2000).]
Paul Revere
New member
This thread is good, because it illustrates how the CHL/CCW license tapes a red flag to your forehead. A minor traffic violation is NOT justification for anything but issuing a citation/warning for the traffic violation, and should not give instant permission for an LEO to violate your 4th Amendment rights. But since the CHL/CCW license trails/tracks with your driver's license (DL), anytime you're asked to hand over the DL, a LEO will instantly know you may be carrying a weapon.
If a person doesn't have a license to exercise his/her 2nd Amendment freedom (dig intended), but carries regardless, a LEO has no reason to go further than the matter at hand. In this case, a simple traffic violation. He doesn't know what you maybe carrying, and doesn't NEED to know. He cannot search your vehicle unless you give permission for him to do so, or he acquires a warrant to make such a search. In either case, he must have reasonable cause for his search (ie, smell/presence of drugs or alcohol, blood splattered back seat, or a bound and gagged person inside your vehicle).
This thread further illustrates how a CHL/CCW license can bite you in your behind. And therefore, cause treatment to an otherwise innocent citizen which is neither justified or necessary.
Our 2nd Amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms, without infringement thereof. The CHL/CCW license is an authorization for infringement.
If a person doesn't have a license to exercise his/her 2nd Amendment freedom (dig intended), but carries regardless, a LEO has no reason to go further than the matter at hand. In this case, a simple traffic violation. He doesn't know what you maybe carrying, and doesn't NEED to know. He cannot search your vehicle unless you give permission for him to do so, or he acquires a warrant to make such a search. In either case, he must have reasonable cause for his search (ie, smell/presence of drugs or alcohol, blood splattered back seat, or a bound and gagged person inside your vehicle).
This thread further illustrates how a CHL/CCW license can bite you in your behind. And therefore, cause treatment to an otherwise innocent citizen which is neither justified or necessary.
Our 2nd Amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms, without infringement thereof. The CHL/CCW license is an authorization for infringement.
In some States it is a requirement to inform a LEO that you have a CCW and are carrying.
In all States it is a courtesy.
As to surrendering your pistol- remember that oftentimes the officer is only acting on the advise of others, i.e. a supervisor or a trusted senior officer. Or perhaps it is the department's policy, either officially or unofficially. Or perhaps the individual officer makes it his or her personal policy. Regardless of the reasoning, no matter how misguided you may think it to be, surrender your pistol on request. You will get it back, something you might not do if you argue or refuse the request.
Erik
In all States it is a courtesy.
As to surrendering your pistol- remember that oftentimes the officer is only acting on the advise of others, i.e. a supervisor or a trusted senior officer. Or perhaps it is the department's policy, either officially or unofficially. Or perhaps the individual officer makes it his or her personal policy. Regardless of the reasoning, no matter how misguided you may think it to be, surrender your pistol on request. You will get it back, something you might not do if you argue or refuse the request.
Erik
If a police officer wants to hold your sidearm, then he's most likely going to get it, one way or another.
But, as others have pointed out, it's not a good idea for him to ask for it. The safest place for that firearm is in its holster. The more it's handled, especially by an inexperienced user (such as many police officers), the more risk there is of an AD or ND.
But, as others have pointed out, it's not a good idea for him to ask for it. The safest place for that firearm is in its holster. The more it's handled, especially by an inexperienced user (such as many police officers), the more risk there is of an AD or ND.
Ed Brunner
New member
Why would the police want to disarm me? So he would feel safer? I would feel safer if he were unarmed too. If I am legally entitled to carry a firearm why wouldnt he respect that right?
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Better days to be,
Ed
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Better days to be,
Ed
Out of courtesy, wouldn't I drop the clip, clear tha action and hand him the gun but first just like I would do with anyone else?
As for other items, I always comply politely with the wishes of an officer in a traffic stop. Typically the police I've been in contact with are very easy to deal with. If one's a ******* well beyond what is appropriate (only happened one time), I'll politely behave and then send a transcript of the recorded conversation to his captain.
Hopefully I'll never get stuck in a really bad situation. If I can't start out with trust as the default in dealing with an officer (or anyone for that matter!), Then I might as well start shooting people on sight - before they shoot me.
As for other items, I always comply politely with the wishes of an officer in a traffic stop. Typically the police I've been in contact with are very easy to deal with. If one's a ******* well beyond what is appropriate (only happened one time), I'll politely behave and then send a transcript of the recorded conversation to his captain.
Hopefully I'll never get stuck in a really bad situation. If I can't start out with trust as the default in dealing with an officer (or anyone for that matter!), Then I might as well start shooting people on sight - before they shoot me.
Skyhawk,
I, too, live in Texas and hold a CHL. A couple of years ago I was stopped (speeding) by San Antonio PD. I had no weapon on me or in the car. By the time the cop arrived at my car, I was out of the car with my DL and proof of insurance in my hand. As he approached me we exchanged greetings and I extended my DL and proof of insurance. He looked at the DL and then asked if I had a CHL. I answered, "Yes." He then asked "In the CHL course what did they tell you to give a traffic cop when stopped?" With no "smart-ass tone," I said "They told me to give you anything you want."
He then said I was REQUIRED to offer my CHL without being ask, no matter if I was unarmed." [I knew that was NOT the rule, but he was the one with the badge.] I quickly produced my CHL with the feeble comment that there was no weapon on me or in the car and that I thought I only had to offer it if I was armed. His response was, "It doesn't matter."
He then told me how lucky I was; that he had the right to keep my CHL since I didn't offer it initially. But, as he said, it was my lucky day, he would not keep my CHL, THIS TIME. (Well, it wasn't entirely my lucky day; he issued me a speeding ticket.)
I was stuned! I had paid attention in the CHL course and was certain I was correct. When I got home, I called the CHL telephone number in the Attorney General's office in Austin. (A person can all and ask specific CHL questions.) I was told that my understanding was correct. He explained the cop was confused. The first year of the CHL in Texas, a CHL holder was indeed required to produce the license whether armed or not.
I've made the decision to always offer both (CHL and DL) next time I'm stopped, just in case the cop isn't current with the CHL rules.
Have any other Texas CHL holders had any sort of experiences like this?
Joe
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"Suppose you are an idiot. And suppose you are a member of congress.
But I repeat myself."
-- Mark Twain
I, too, live in Texas and hold a CHL. A couple of years ago I was stopped (speeding) by San Antonio PD. I had no weapon on me or in the car. By the time the cop arrived at my car, I was out of the car with my DL and proof of insurance in my hand. As he approached me we exchanged greetings and I extended my DL and proof of insurance. He looked at the DL and then asked if I had a CHL. I answered, "Yes." He then asked "In the CHL course what did they tell you to give a traffic cop when stopped?" With no "smart-ass tone," I said "They told me to give you anything you want."
He then said I was REQUIRED to offer my CHL without being ask, no matter if I was unarmed." [I knew that was NOT the rule, but he was the one with the badge.] I quickly produced my CHL with the feeble comment that there was no weapon on me or in the car and that I thought I only had to offer it if I was armed. His response was, "It doesn't matter."
He then told me how lucky I was; that he had the right to keep my CHL since I didn't offer it initially. But, as he said, it was my lucky day, he would not keep my CHL, THIS TIME. (Well, it wasn't entirely my lucky day; he issued me a speeding ticket.)
I was stuned! I had paid attention in the CHL course and was certain I was correct. When I got home, I called the CHL telephone number in the Attorney General's office in Austin. (A person can all and ask specific CHL questions.) I was told that my understanding was correct. He explained the cop was confused. The first year of the CHL in Texas, a CHL holder was indeed required to produce the license whether armed or not.
I've made the decision to always offer both (CHL and DL) next time I'm stopped, just in case the cop isn't current with the CHL rules.
Have any other Texas CHL holders had any sort of experiences like this?
Joe
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"Suppose you are an idiot. And suppose you are a member of congress.
But I repeat myself."
-- Mark Twain
cruiserman
New member
I really doubt a LEO is going to ask for my loaded firearm unless he grabs it himself. I would probably tell him where it is, and let him decide what he wants to do.
Gwinnydapooh
Retired Screen Name
We're asking two separate questions here.
1. Do you have the right, as a righteous man before God and beast, to tell the officer to go screw and that you'll keep your sidearm?
Probably, in the strictest interpretation of your rights.
2. Is that the best way to handle things?
No. Infringement or not, he's probably more nervous than you and he's armed too. The cop is not thinking of your rights, only sifting reasons for you to comply or refuse. We all know what reason he'll come up with if you won't hand your gun over. I don't have a CCW or carry a gun but you can be damn sure I have my hands resting limp on the steering wheel by the time a cop gets up to my car. Would I be within my rights not to do that? Sure. I'm also within my rights, even recognized by law, to drink a fifth of bourbon right now before I go to my sculpture class. That doesn't make it a good idea.
Just do the best you can and be thankful you live in a country where most police are honest well-meaning, if a bit misguided.
1. Do you have the right, as a righteous man before God and beast, to tell the officer to go screw and that you'll keep your sidearm?
Probably, in the strictest interpretation of your rights.
2. Is that the best way to handle things?
No. Infringement or not, he's probably more nervous than you and he's armed too. The cop is not thinking of your rights, only sifting reasons for you to comply or refuse. We all know what reason he'll come up with if you won't hand your gun over. I don't have a CCW or carry a gun but you can be damn sure I have my hands resting limp on the steering wheel by the time a cop gets up to my car. Would I be within my rights not to do that? Sure. I'm also within my rights, even recognized by law, to drink a fifth of bourbon right now before I go to my sculpture class. That doesn't make it a good idea.
Just do the best you can and be thankful you live in a country where most police are honest well-meaning, if a bit misguided.
Steve in PA
New member
This was actually a heated topic of discussion over at Shooters Guntalk in the self defense & concealed carry dept. Myself and other fellow LEO's on the board tried to explain..things from our situation and point of view of encountering someone who is armed during a traffic stop. I'll try and hit the high points here. First, I have stopped a few people who have had weapons with them. Should you, as the person carrying inform the LEO...if your state requires it ...of course. If it doesn't....I would recomend it. If this is just a plain jane...no frills traffic stop...and you tell me that you have a weapon....my first question will be where is it....second will be, please keep your hands visible....third is, do you have a permit. Here in PA...you don't need a permit when going to/from a range, gunsmith and a few other instances. So, ok....I check your permit...your drivers license...etc...you get your citation or warning and we part our ways...simple, easy. For whatever reason I ask you to get out of your vehicle....this is "definitely" a good time to inform me that you have a weapon. Now....at this point you will probably be disarmed....for my safety as well as yours. You may be the next pope...but I don't know that......I don't want a ....careless move on your part (moving to put hands in pocket or on hip) to lead to something we both don't want to happen. Ok, the weapon is removed......we take care of business...you get your gun back...again we part company. People with CCW's need to know and realize why a LEO does things. You may be a law abiding citizen, you may have your CCW.....but too many LEO's get shot/killed during "routine" traffic stops. By the way....I am pro-gun/pro-carry for everyone qualified to do so. Some over at the other board stamped their feet, swore up and down that they wouldn't relenquish their gun...saying they haven't done anything wrong.....this maybe true however......myself and others (LEO's) tried to inform them that they will be disarmed...how it is done is up to you. I don't want to come across as some kind of "storm trooper" because I'm not...its just the way things are done. Legal and lawfully carrying CCW's are not view as problems by LEO's. I also tried to inform them that if I am off duty and happen to be outside my jurisdiction and am stopped by a LEO, even though I have my badge,id and weapon with me....he is in charge...if he wants to disarm me while we conduct business..fine...he is in charge of the situation. Now, the topic of a weapon doesn't normally come up in conversation during a "normal" traffic stop, so if you inform me fine..if you don't...well...nothing I can do about that. If you are inclined you can check out the whole heated debate over there...it makes for some very interesting reading and some very dangerous thoughts and statements
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Steve
LPD
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Steve
LPD
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