Turning a 9mm 1911 to at 38 super

My Colt in 38 super cost under 1K NIB--but that was a while ago though not longer than 10 years ago. I think 38 super is great cartridge for the 1911. Colt isn't necessarily the best 1911 around--but I would definitely be willing to pay a premium to have one over an RIA.
 
38 Super as a Caliber

For newbies following this thread...... the 9mm Luger while the most popular centerfire handgun cartridge on the planet, is not the most powerful defensive caliber by any means. It is basically the same diameter as a 38 special, 357 mag etc within 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch. 0.355 vs, 0.356 vs, 0.357 or even 0.358. Most 9mm and 38 super ammo is commonly loaded with 0.355 or 0.356 bullets while most 357 mag ammo is loaded with 0.357 bullets. But if the chamber is big enough you can load 38 super with 0.357 bullets you would also load in your 357 mag revolver given they have a bullet profile that will feed in a semi auto. I've personally launched 158 grain SWC bullets from a 9mm S&W that would chamber and feed them. I just used a very low powder charge since a lot of the volume of the case was taken up by the bullet. The difference in case length between 9mm luger and 38 super is about 4 millimeter. (9x19 vs 9x23) The 38 super and the Spanish 9mm Largo cartridge are but for rim diameter about identical in length, dimensions and standard commercial loadings due to the prevalence of old weak guns that will chamber these rounds. With the extra powder capacity of the 38 super, and strength of the modern 1911 design, the 38 super can drive bullets much faster than the 9mm luger in strong guns. While 1250 fps would be pushing it for a 9mm luger with 115 grain bullets, 1450 fps would be entirely reasonable with careful selection of bullet and powder from a 5 inch 1911 pistol. While the 357 Sig reaches these speeds more commonly with factory ammo from a 4 inch barrel, the 38 super is not much different ballistically when hand loaded to full potential and without the commonly experienced problem of bullet set back like those reloading 357 Sig who purchase specially designed bullets with the correct profile to avoid bullet set back under recoil.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/super-powders-for-the-38-super/99160

Three advantages of the 38 super over 45 ACP in the defensive 1911 are reduced muzzle flip, increased barrier penetration and increased magazine capacity. My Kimber Pro Carry HD in 38 super does not twist uncomfortably in the hand when shooting full power ammo like my Colt Commander in 45 ACP.

Lastly, the 38 super generally has less muzzle blast than a 357 mag and accuracy and reliability can be excellent from a single stack 1911 pistol. While the 38 super is not for everyone or even the guy with just one hand gun, it is a sweet shooting and nostalgic cartridge tracing its roots back to the first Colt 1900 Automatic pistol.
 
In 1900, Browning introduced the .38 auto (.38 ACP), firing a 130gr bullet at a listed 1040fps.

In 1902 Luger introduced the 9mm Parabellum, firing a 124gr bullet at a listed 1050fps.

The 9mm Largo showed up about 1910 and fired a 125gr bullet at a listed 1120fps.

Sometime shortly before WWI Germany adopted a 115gr 9mm Parabellum load at a listed 1150fps.

In 1929 a high pressure version of the .38ACP was created to run in the Colt Govt Model pistol. This round became known as the .38 Super, and fired a 130gr bullet at a listed 1275fps.

Not counting modern +p and +p+ loadings, the .38 Super has always been loaded faster than the 9mm Luger.

..the commonly experienced problem of bullet set back like those reloading 357 Sig who purchase specially designed bullets with the correct profile to avoid bullet set back under recoil.
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This part has me a bit confused, as I have never heard of bullet setback under recoil being a problem with the .357 Sig, or any other standard pistol round. It is a recognized issue with heavy recoiling rifles (like .458 mag) but not in pistols. Setback under recoil is caused by the front wall of the magazine striking the bullet due to heavy recoil. Pistols simply don't have that much recoil energy to set the bullets back, UNLESS the ammo is not properly made.

Bullet setback during FEEDING is a possible issue, but again, only if the ammo is not properly made.
 
.38 Auto started out about like .38 Super but that was hard on the "parallel ruler" guns, so they cut the load. A 1920 source said a 130 at 1175. Wiki says the 130 at 1050 is based on the 4.5" barrel of the Pocket Model vs the 6" Sporting and Military models.
 
Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on the reported velocities. The only velocity that matters is what the gun and ammo in your hands does.

I have seen guns with the same barrel length, shooting the same ammunition vary by as much as 100fps, though half that, or less is more common, it can happen.

What they got with what they shot is probably close to what you'll get, but its not guaranteed.
 
44 AMP said:
In 1900, Browning introduced the .38 auto (.38 ACP), firing a 130gr bullet at a listed 1040fps.

In 1929 a high pressure version of the .38ACP was created to run in the Colt Govt Model pistol. This round became known as the .38 Super, and fired a 130gr bullet at a listed 1275fps.
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Some of those numbers/dates don't add up.

Here's a link with the history of the 38 Super cartridge;

https://web.archive.org/web/20170716064320/http://www.38super.net/Pages/History.html

Notable details:

The first specification for the 38 Auto in 1900 was a bullet raveling 1260 fps from a 6" barrel according to Douglas Sheldon (1997).

The 38 Super cartridge was not created in 1929. The Super 38 Pistol was created in 1929 and was chambered for 38 Automatic. The velocity of the 38 Auto was reported as 1190-1200 fps.

It was not until around 1933 that the 38 Auto got a speed boost and that upped it to 1300 fps.


Sheldon, Douglas G. 1997. Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971. Quick Vend, Inc. Willernie, MN.
 
Thanks RC. That was super helpful.

Is it fact or fiction that 38 Super kinda still exists at all because the no go on 9mm use in some countries?

Also, just ammoseeking 38 Super. It's amazing how much of the commercial options are +P
 
wild cat mccane said:
Also, just ammoseeking 38 Super. It's amazing how much of the commercial options are +P
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All 38 Super ammo is labeled +P. "+P" was added to the 38 Super name in 1974 by the industry to distinguish it from the 38 Automatic. The +P was just a name change in 1974, there was no pressure change. The 38 Super and 38 Automatic are dimensionally the same but have different pressure limits and the +P name is intended to make the difference clear.

See the link I posted.
 
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Is it fact or fiction that 38 Super kinda still exists at all because the no go on 9mm use in some countries?
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Can't say which it is, but there is no denying the fact that the .38 Super is very popular in countries that prohibit civilians from owning "military calibers". Several of those countries are in Latin America.

Another possibly reason for the Super's popularity in those places is that, often the Super will chamber and fire in guns made for the 9mm Largo. Also, the Super will chamber and fire in SOME .38special and .357 Magnum revolvers.

The specs say it shouldn't work, but some gun and ammo combinations will, due to the various tolerances involved.
 
Can't say which it is, but there is no denying the fact that the .38 Super is very popular in countries that prohibit civilians from owning "military calibers". Several of those countries are in Latin America.
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I don't know about other places but the largest calibers allowed for private ownership in Mexico are .380 ACP and .38 Special, the glory days of the South of the Border Super are past.

Another possibly reason for the Super's popularity in those places is that, often the Super will chamber and fire in guns made for the 9mm Largo. Also, the Super will chamber and fire in SOME .38special and .357 Magnum revolvers.
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A Spanish pistol marked 9mm/.38 is meant for both 9mm Largo (Spanish version of 9mm Bergman Bayard) and .38 Auto. .38 Super is an overload but they seem to hold up fairly well.

Once upon a time, CCI ran off some 9mm Largo Blazer aluminum. It did not seem to sell well, so it was discontinued and blown out cheap by distributors. A guy here stocked up on it and shot it in his SVI Super where it fed, fired, and functioned. Cheap powder gave it a bright flash, though.
 
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Is it fact or fiction that 38 Super kinda still exists at all because the no go on 9mm use in some countries?
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It depends on the country and it wasn't just about getting around the prohibition on 9mm. At one time, .38 Super was relatively popular in Central and South American countries, Mexico in particular. This is because these countries banned civilian ownership of not only 9x19, but anything they deemed to be a "military" caliber. As I understand it, .38 Super was popular at the time not so much as a substitute for 9mm, which hadn't really caught on so much in the western hemisphere yet, but for .45 ACP since commercially made 1911's were available and, at that time, legal in .38 Super. As I understand it now, .38 Super has subsequently been banned in Mexico and other Central and South American countries and in many, if not most, of them the largest handgun calibers now allowed are .380 Auto for a semi-auto or .38 Special for a revolver.

In Europe, where 9x19 is also commonly banned as a "military" caliber, the more common approach seems to be either 9x21 or .30 Luger as most 9x19 pistols need only a barrel swap to be rechambered to either of those cartridges.

Also, just ammoseeking 38 Super. It's amazing how much of the commercial options are +P
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In the case of .38 Super, +P doesn't mean quite the same thing as it does in other handgun calibers. SAAMI does not have both a "standard pressure" and "+P" specification for .38 Super like they do for .38 Special, 9x19, and .45 Auto. Instead, most commercially-produced .38 Super ammunition is labeled "+P" to dissuade its use in older guns chambered for .38 ACP as the two cartridges, while having vastly different pressure specs, are dimensionally identical and thus it would be possible to chamber and fire a .38 Super round in a gun chambered for .38 ACP though it certainly wouldn't be safe to do so. In addition to the +P designation, much of the commercially produced .38 Super ammunition is loaded in nickel-plated brass to further differentiate it from .38 ACP even when the .38 Super ammunition in question is just target FMJ.

Honestly, the +P label and nickel-plated brass seems pretty superfluous to me as there aren't all that many guns in .38 ACP still floating around out there (they haven't been produced in nearly, if not over, 100 years) and, to my knowledge, no major ammo maker has produced .38 ACP ammunition for many decades. Furthermore, if someone were foolish enough to try to shoot modern .38 Super ammunition in an old, rare, and likely quite valuable gun chambered in .38 ACP, I doubt that nickel plated cases or a +P headstamp would stop them.
 
In Europe, where 9x19 is also commonly banned as a "military" caliber, the more common approach seems to be either 9x21 or .30 Luger as most 9x19 pistols need only a barrel swap to be rechambered to either of those cartridges.
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I have read that Italy has dropped that restriction and you may now have a 9mm P.


Honestly, the +P label and nickel-plated brass seems pretty superfluous to me as there aren't all that many guns in .38 ACP still floating around
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Well, we still get warnings not to shoot .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40 High Velocity in revolvers and 1873 Winchesters even though the hot loads haven't been made in decades. The last I saw was .32-20 in a 1960 listing.
 
Is it fact or fiction that 38 Super kinda still exists at all because the no go on 9mm use in some countries?
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In the U.S., .38 Super was the dominant caliber in USPSA competition for many years, because it could somewhat safely attain "major power", when 9mm Luger could not.
Friends were loading 115gr bullets to over 1500fps in their Supers, 25 years ago.
Changes in rules and advancements in propellants has allowed 9mm to dominate in today's competition.
 
That was kinda the next question I decided not to ask, but am now. Seems like the high pressure .40 with a 135gr or 155gr accomplishes a lot of what 38 Super does on paper and where mag capacity isn't important in a 1911.

On RIA, their 22TCM or 9R are the high FPS sport shooting handgun rounds and RIA makes guns for them.

But both are not what was asked.
 
The main advantage of .38 Super is that its OAL is made to fit the 1911 action and it feeds well.
The main disadvantage is cost. Super ammunition is more expensive than 9mm and if you are a reloader you will spend a lot of time looking for empties.
 
I bought some of the Federal 38 super 115grain JHP ammo some years back and it was rather erratic and wasn't 100% reliable in my 4" Kimber. The only viable factory load I have for defense out of my super is some Aguila 130 grain FMJ. I loaded up some hot 124 grain XTP hollow points in new brass to a bit over 1250 fps and my gun loves the load. The 38 super factory ammo was running about $20 a box or a bit less before the pandemic. Now it's running even higher than $20 a box while the 9mm luger is available well under $20 a box again. I think of the 38 super an enthusiasts caliber. You either have to be well off with money to burn on over priced ammo and willing to grab your ankles to pay for it or you have to load your own ammo to get costs down. The only effective Hollow point ammo is really the expensive stuff like Buffalo Bore and Corbon at over $1 a round. In addition to the similar 38 auto 38 super and 9mm Largo there is the rimless 38 super comp and the thick cased 9x23 Winchester with factory ammo running into the 1400s to duplicate 357 mag with 125 grain bullets, but it's not very popular due to the cost of ammo and guns harder to find than for a 38 super.

As far as bullet set back in the 357 sig it has to do with the short neck needing fairly straight sided bullets to maintain neck tension. Any set back of a tapered 115 or 124 grain standard profile 9mm round nose may result in total loss of bullet tension and the bullet totally collapsing back into the case. Bullets that are Truncated like the Hornady XTP are needed for the 357 Sig to avoid this known problem. Any 9mm bullet and many 357 bullets are just fine to use in a 38 super plus you can use straight walled carbide dies that don't require case lube. The super is not as finicky to load as the 9x23 which has a very thick case web and reduced capacity when compared with the straight walled classic 38 super case. You might have problems seating a 158grain lead RN bullet in 9x23 but they seat fine and shoot great out of 38 super for target work:).

The 40 loaded with 155 and 135 grain bullets is ballistically right up there with the 357 mag manstopper loads. I've loaded 180s, 155s and 135s in 40 smith and wesson and the 180 grain load is a thumper kinda like a 45 running around 950fps out of a 4 inch gun. The 155s have much more violent upset when driven above 1,150fps while the 135s can easily top 1,350fps with violent expansion. On the flip side the flash and blast increases a lot when you hot rod the 40 but it is a potent round that people disparage next to the 10mm. However, it is often loaded to the same speeds as the 40 for target loads or maybe 100fps faster in some cases for factory hollow points.
 
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