Tungsten insert came out?!?!?

M

michaeldarnold

New member
Last night while processing .45ACP shells the Tungsten insert in my Lyman TC die came out of the die housing. Upon retracting the ram to my surprise is a brass shell with a tungsten ring wrapped around it. Needless to say I was quite surprised and it shut me down for the evening. I've contacted Lyman via their email system, but I fear this is going to cost me some money...:mad:

Anybody else have this happen? And if so, did you fix it yourself or send the thing back?

I'll try to post pictures I took with my phone later.
Mike
 
Yes, the exact same thing happened to me many years ago with a Lyman carbide die in .45 ACP. Called Lyman, and they replaced it - no problem. Been fine ever since. It was so long ago I can't remember if they had me send the old one back to them or if they just sent out the replacement.
 
Those are press-fit into the die. If I had it and the factory wasn't replacing it, I would narrow the recess by rolling it in my lathe using a knurling tool with a smooth roller in place of a knurl, then press it back in. Assuming you can't do that conveniently, the fit is probably still very close to tight, so I would degrease the die body and sizing ring and apply the permanent type red LocTite (nealy 10× the strength of the removable types) to both the seat and the ring and press it back into place, wipe off any excess and let it set up for 24 hours.

If you don't have an arbor press, just screw the die body into your loading press, lay a flat piece of brass or steel over the end of the press ram, set the ring on that and press it back into place. Just be sure the ring is oriented correctly.
 
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Hope this picture makes it.

I don't personally have a lathe, but a friend of mine owns a machine shop. So machining the die isn't out of the question.

If I have to glue it back in, so be it. I want to see what Lyman has to say before I start repairs on my own.
 
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There's a couple quick fixes if Lyman won't replace it. You could solder it back in place, silver solder. Clean the recess, tin with silver solder, clean the insert with a good flux, and while hot drop the insert in. Or you could use a prick punch and punch a series of "pricks" around the ID of the die, where the insert sits, to raise small ridges of metal, thus decreasing the ID, and press the insert back in place. I'm sure Lyman will replace the die though...
 
Can't install the ring while it's hot. I like the idea of red lock tite but put the ring in the freezer for a few hours. When ready to drop it in, apply the lock tite and drop it in.
 
I haven't checked, but do we know condensation from taking it out of the freezer won't interfere with the Loctite setting up?

I also note that Loctite 648 is a product specifically for retention of press fit parts. Not red color, but claims to be high strength and high temperature and able to work through minor contamination.
 
Incidentally, while the ring was wrapped around the offending shell, the ring and shell assembly would press back into the the die housing. Now that everything is apart, fat chance pushing that thing in without mechanical assistance.

Glues typically don't like cold, but I'll have to look into the specs for cure times an temps if I don't get satisfaction from Lyman.

One would think that as the ring comes back to normal room temperature after pressing into the die body that the glue would still cure. However cold does weird stuff to glues. Could result in a failure to adhere to the surfaces.

Mike
 
I certainly expect Lyman to take care of you, but here are a few other thoughts...

Lock-tite cures in the absence of air. Although the ring is normally retained by the end of the die being bent over it, using a little Lock-Tite would add some extra hold. You should not have any problem pushing the ring back in the die simply by screwing the die all the way down in the press and sitting the ring on the top of the ram. I would place a small block of wood on the ram end to protect the brittle carbide from any pressure points, and be careful getting it centered on the die - no need to fiddle with heat or cold. Any decent press should have more than enough pressure to push it right back into place.

If you examine the die, you will see that the end was originally peened over all the way around the end - this is what retained the carbide ring in the first place (and also gave some protection to the brittle carbide ring from direct contact with the shell holder). Once you press the ring back in place, it would be a simple matter to screw the die in the press upside down and use a small flat-end punch to carefully peen that edge down a bit over the ring to retain it - should be fixed for life. It doesn't need much peening for retention, and no need for it to be smooth or uniformly done - six or eight spots with a small punch should do it. Just don't go too Magilla on it or you might crack the carbide.
 
Can't install the ring while it's hot. I like the idea of red lock tite but put the ring in the freezer for a few hours. When ready to drop it in, apply the lock tite and drop it in.
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Not while the ring is hot but the die body. It should expand with heat when tinning and with a thin layer of solder the ring should slip in. When cool the die contracts around the ring and the solder adds adhesion to keep ring inn the die body...;)
 
"Tungsten Carbide", which is an alloy of Carbon, Steel, and Tungsten.
Click to expand...

Not that, either. Tungsten carbide is a specific chemical compound, WC. Wiki says there is also tungsten semicarbide W2C.
"Cemented tungsten carbide" is fine WC in a metal matrix, usually cobalt. Or you can see sintered tungsten carbide with nothing added.

I agree, most reloading companies give "good customer service" and Lyman will probably replace your die.

If you want to tinker with it or Lyman is not helpful, the insert was originally retained by the lip of the steel die body rolled over the edge of the insert.
Machine tool carbide inserts are commonly held by solder or braze.
I don't know if glue will hold up.
RCBS carbide dies have a smooth flush end with no roll. Maybe they are soldered in or maybe shrink fit.

When I was new in reloading in the 1970s, there was a shop advertising in the old Shotgun News for addition of a carbide insert to plain steel dies for $10. I wonder how he retained them.
 
Lyman uses a ticketing system for customer service via their website so turn around time is probably going to be abysmal. I still haven't heard anything back yet, but I'm not really in a hurry because I have a backup all steel die too.

Ideally I'd like to see Lyman make good on the die. If that falls through, then I get to tinker. YAY!
 
Mr. Watson is correct. Tungsten carbide, titanium carbide, boron carbide, and silicone carbide are compounds of tungsten, titanium, boron and silicone with carbon. That's all. The tungsten carbide usually used in tools is small grains held together with cobalt or nickel (kenemetal, for example) as a binder.

I don't know how epoxy adhesion will go. Loctite makes a lot of metal filled epoxies, but they don't recommend them for this kind of application. The 648 I referred to and, for looser fits, Loctite 660 Quick Metal are two they do recommend that I've used. The latter, after over 20 years, is still holding a bushing I made for a loose Garand lower band in place, and I know it's seen a fair amount of rapid fire barrel heat without blushing.
 
Mr. Watson is correct. Tungsten carbide, titanium carbide, boron carbide, and silicone carbide are compounds of tungsten, titanium, boron and silicone with carbon. That's all.
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There are only two elemental metals that are attracted to a magnet, ferrous (Iron), metals and Nickle (slightly magnetic). As an experiment (I have done this to the Tungsten Carbide ring in Lee Pistol Factory Crimp Dies, that I have knocked the ring out of the dies, and other "Tungsten Carbide" cutting tools), touch a magnet to them to see if they are attracted to it. If they are (the ones I have tested are), they there is a ferrous metal (steel) present. Try it and get back to us.
 
There are only two elemental metals that are attracted to a magnet, ferrous (Iron), metals and Nickle (slightly magnetic).
Click to expand...

Once more, not so.
Cobalt is also somewhat ferromagnetic.
Cobalt is the usual binder in "cemented tungsten carbide."
Hence, a sizing die insert can be magnetic.
 
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