Trying to Build a Custom Rifle - Help with Smiths, etc

When I had my big custom gun made I looked into getting an accurized Remington action done, but ended up buying a Defiance action. The cost for a new action +gunsmithing was pretty much the same as a custom action to start with.
I had a hunting rifle done from parts off gunbrocker by Score High Gunsmithing, they had very reasonable prices and did a nice job.
 
You can make switch barrel remingtons as well. They are even easier to switch than a Savage.

On a switch barrel remington you need a barrel vice and an action wrench. You don't need go no go gauges or anything like that. You unscrew one barrel and screw on the other and your ready to go.
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Can you explain this to me?
Savages "lock in" their headspace with the barrel nut. Any pre-fit barrel will work, and there is no need for a smith to touch the action or barrel.

Unless I'm missing something (and I'm no gunsmith), to change barrels on a Rem 700 the barrel would need to be custom fitted by the gunsmith to your action. Chamber reamed, and threading timed perfectly- custom- to your action. You just can't take a barrel off any 700 and screw it onto yours.

Now, even if all that were done by a smith, I'd sure feel a lot more confident checking the headspace even though you say it's not necessary.

That process sure sounds a lot more expensive, and certainly not easier, than a Savage barrel swap. So what do I have wrong here?


To the OP...

The facts upset a lot of guys with $5,000 custom rifles. But you can't dispute them. Sure, it can be fun to build a custom rifle.

But when it comes down to it, when it comes to factory stock rifles- and accuracy- NOTHING beats the Savage target series. Spend three, four, or five times as much if you like- but it's simply not necessary.

Here are a few articles, just Google for many more. The Savage 12 LRP in .260 or 6.5 Creed is going to be my next rifle- and it's under a grand.

Darrell Buell, John Weil, Monte Milanuk, and Stan Pate of Team Savage competed against some of the best talent and most expensive custom rifles from around the country during the match. But, once again, those expensive custom guns were no match for four skilled marksmen armed with stock Savage Model 12 rifles.
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Keep in mind, they're winning these national comps with BONE STOCK rifles...

http://3gunnation.com/news/savage_shooters_take_title_break_1000_yard_records

http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=3ij567qnL
 
300magman, From your last post you know what calibers you want to use plus type barrels etc.

Why don't you post what your going to use?
 
I cann't seem to find anything about Team Savage winning this year here a team that's won more than once.
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My point wasn't who's won what, how many times. Only, that these are bone stock, factory rifles that you and I can buy on the street- and they regularly win (not just national f/tr class) competitions. Far as I know, only Savage can make that claim.

Yes, I am a bit of a fanboy of Savage- but also own 700's and Howa's (as well as others) and am happy with them as well. But I feel Savage has the switchbarrel concept down to utter simplicity and no other manufacturer (of production rifles) can compare in that department.
 
My point wasn't who's won what, how many times. Only, that these are bone stock, factory rifles that you and I can buy on the street- and they regularly win (not just national f/tr class) competitions. Far as I know, only Savage can make that claim.
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If you believe they are the same rifles you can buy on the street I've got some "ocean front property" I'll sell you. The rifles that the Savage team use may look like the off the street models but they come from the Savage custom shop. There is a lot more attention paid to the assembly of these rifles than the ones on the regular line.
 
Unless I'm missing something (and I'm no gunsmith), to change barrels on a Rem 700 the barrel would need to be custom fitted by the gunsmith to your action. Chamber reamed, and threading timed perfectly- custom- to your action. You just can't take a barrel off any 700 and screw it onto yours.

Now, even if all that were done by a smith, I'd sure feel a lot more confident checking the headspace even though you say it's not necessary.

That process sure sounds a lot more expensive, and certainly not easier, than a Savage barrel swap. So what do I have wrong here?
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Correct your head space is built into the barrel and everything is first done by a smith after that. You are free to change the barrel as needed as long as all the cartridges use the same rim diameter.

I never said you can just take any barrel and screw it on to any action. This is a custom set up that you need to have a gunsmith do. He will make all the barrels you wish head space them on your action and then you have everythign you want.

For instance. You want a 308 for F-Class, a 260 rem for hunting and say a 243 for varmints. He would make each barrel fit that rifle and cut the chamber to head space when you put a specific amount of torque on the action. So you would have 3 barrels 1 action and fun fun fun.....
 
I think I now know why Savages are so popular. A top quality savage pre chambered barrel costs the same as a countoured unfinished barrel to be used on a remington, but the savage's can be installed by the user for the price of a set of go/no go guages while the remington costs 300-500 to have a smith install. Talk about Huge Savings if you use even a few barrels over the life of a rifle.
 
I also believe Savage is your best bet on this. Now the question is long or short, single shot or magazine fed. . . etc

I would use a Savage because the front of the bolt can be replaced to change case head size, if you need that. Also, the barrel nut design is ready made for switch barrel gun making.

Remington's need trued, sleeved, bushed, etc because they have weaknesses. The lugs need lapped because they tend to bear on one lug until the chamber pressure gets up. This is because the trigger pushes up on the bolt, angling it. So then people bush the rear of the bolt, but the lugs still need lapped due to machining tolerances. Of course, if you are not guaranteeing the bolt is straight, you have to recut the bolt face. . but since you are cutting it square to the body, you need the back bushed. After you get all that done, you need a bedding block or action sleeve to hang a heavy barrel off it. Oh yea, ideally you want to remove the ejector pin also as it tries to twist the case in the chamber. I almost forgot that you will need to buy a trigger worthy of what you are doing! After all that, it is a .5MOA action, so most serious shooter go full custom.

With reasonable barrel weights, a Savage can be built using the stock action. This is because the bolt is jointed which isolates the trigger force on it. The ejector on some models is a fixed type, so that is a non-factor. You might want to recut the bolt face and lugs, but only if your smith can do them relative to each other and preferably in the same setup. Also, Savage has made some benchrest type actions from the factory. You may not win a competition, but what a local BR or varmint gun!!!

All this said, I think many Savage actions will not be a liability down to .5MOA where I think untrue'd Remington's start to be a liability getting under 1MOA. This is opinion of course, but it is based on my studies and real world results with a Savage.

The Savage might be a trick to cut pillars for, but it is worth doing well. Fortunately, you can cut pillars with hand tools, it is just slow.
 
There is a real good article in the latest issue of Precision Shooting about the 20 Bobcat. Kevin Weaver explains how he fits a barrel for that caliber on a customer existing switch barrel rifle using a Rem action.

Here is important quote from the article from a gunsmith who build rifles.
1) I set the headspace tight where it will close on the "go" gage or factory case. This very important on switch barrels rifles because the barrels are only hand tight, and the tightness will vary from time-to-time.

He also explains how he cuts the tread so that they will screw in with a lot of hand pressure.

If anyone here has shot BR using a Panda/Kodiak action and changed your own barrels like I did without headspace gage or case will understand what Kevin is talking about.

I was at Kevin shop couple weeks ago has a nice set up was my first visit.

I'm sure the internet experts will have plenty of comments on how things should be build.
 
I think I now know why Savages are so popular. A top quality savage pre chambered barrel costs the same as a countoured unfinished barrel to be used on a remington, but the savage's can be installed by the user for the price of a set of go/no go guages while the remington costs 300-500 to have a smith install. Talk about Huge Savings if you use even a few barrels over the life of a rifle.
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Don't think you have to use a Savage action for the same thing. Bergara and Northland Shooters Supply all sell barrels for Remington that use a barrel nut to set headspace. I've read as well on other forums McGowen and Pac-Nor are selling pre-fits that use a Savage style nut for the M700 action as well but can't confirm it by checking their web sites. There is also a few other sites offeing the barrels like McRee Precision.

I'd have the recoil lug pinned to the receiver just for simplicity sake if I used a "Rem-age" nut system.
 
The switchbarrel system for the 700 is interesting- not seen it before.

One other point to make is that with Savage, changing the bolthead (if necessary due to a caliber change) is also, cheap and easy...
Not so with the Rem, you need an entire new bolt...
 
You might consider Shilen's DGV/DGR action to start with. It has the best of both worlds it is a Rem 700 clone with Savage barrel nut and floating bolt head. Since it is a M700 clone you'll have a lot more options out there for stocks, mounts, triggers and and other accessories than you would have with a Savage action. Plus you would be able to still switch barrels and bolt heads easily.
 
I generally avoid getting into these "Savage is better than Remington because I think so" arguments, but here is some info on building accurate rifles (which is what I do):

* Pick the action you want to use. I prefer Remington 700 actions because they're a great action to start with, and there are lots of good aftermarket parts, and when they are done they look nice (as opposed to a Savage action). But you pick what you want. There are also custom actions available that mimic the dimensions of Remington 700 action (unlike Savage) so that you can take advantage of all the aftermarket parts made for Remingtons. If you choose a custom action (like a Surgeon or Shilen), you have the benefit of most of the "special" work already done.

* Triggers are the critical part of a true target rifle, and an important component of any rifle. Remington 700s have the most extensive selection of trigger available, all the way from target triggers with pulls in mere ounces to hunting triggers with pull weights adjustable to 4+ pounds. Savage's trigger design is designed to be easy to manufacture, and is difficult to tune to get a truly fine trigger. Many custom actions are set up to accept Remington triggers. Not so with the Savage design, possibly because no one wants to pay to have a piece of stamped sheetmetal bolted to the bottom of their rifle. I have seen benchrest rifles built on Remington actions, but I have never seen a Savage benchrest rifle. Not that no one has ever built one, I'm sure, but I would bet you won't see them very often.

* If you are going to build a custom hunting rifle, start with a good action (Montana, Dakota, Remington, Winchester, etc). Milsurp actions are OK, but you will be disappointed. If you are going to build a target/benchrest rifle, start with a custom action, it's just cheaper in the long run, and you will get better results. There are sites like Kelbly's that specialize in benchrest, and there are sites like Surgeon that specialize in tactical stuff.

* The whole idea of a switch-barrel rifle sounds really cool, but I know people who had custom switch-barrel rifles built and they just shoot one barrel. Oh sure, they could switch barrels, but most will never switch barrels once they are set up. Ask people who own Blasers or Sauer 2000s, and you will likely find the same; they shoot one barrel because they like it. I will assume that most Savage owners are the same: they could but they don't.

* There is a lot of opinion and misinformation being offered as advice in this thread:
a- The Savage shooting team does not shoot box-stock Savage rifles, just like NASCAR race cars are not the same car you would buy from your Aunt Nellie. Their rifles are very carefully built, just like any of the factory shooting teams.
b- You do not need to sleeve a Remington 700 action to get it to shoot well, but benchresters often do. But then benchresters also rebarrel after as few as 500-600 rounds.
c- Remington triggers do not push axially on the bolt, they are a drop-sear trigger. Savage triggers push axially on the bolt. So what?
d- Remington bolt lugs do not normally bear on just one lug, but may from the factory because of slight warping or misalignment during heat treating/brazing.

And so on.
 
* The whole idea of a switch-barrel rifle sounds really cool, but I know people who had custom switch-barrel rifles built and they just shoot one barrel. Oh sure, they could switch barrels, but most will never switch barrels once they are set up. Ask people who own Blasers or Sauer 2000s, and you will likely find the same; they shoot one barrel because they like it. I will assume that most Savage owners are the same: they could but they don't.
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I have to agree with Scorch here on this point. Every Savage I've swapped barrels on I've sold the other barrel. I use Savage rifles to try out chamberings I want to try a lot of times I can pick up a A&B or ER Shaw barrel for less than $200 and a custom McGowen for around $300. If I happen to like the chambering I'll start looking for a rifle in the same chambering and sell my barrel off to try something else.
 
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